By: beachcomber
- 20th April 2012 at 11:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Having had a think on this:
1/ I believe it is not a physical model, when working with materials to represent something on a larger scale they don't look or behave the same. Having looked at the links on other postings they are obviously models.
2/ the lighting which if you have visited Africa you will know that the differences of an African sun which is surreal is correct.
3/ The environment that it is sitting on as has been pointed out is not the same as 70 years ago
So this leaves the option is it a Photoshopped creation, as has been pointed out the level of informed detail is staggering. The technical knowledge of the 'alleged' modeller is brilliant. So you are looking for either a very well informed digital artist with a lot of time on his hands or it's real.
I work in digital imaging and I know that you can achieve amazing results. But then you have to ask yourself why, so I'm putting my foot into the real camp. Whether it's a current picture I don't know.
By: Bruce
- 20th April 2012 at 11:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, if I was the RAF Museum, and someone had brought it to me, I would be keeping it quiet too, especially if there were any chance at all of recovering it.
I am very much in the 'real' camp, with the caveat that they could be old (20 yrs+) pictures that are only now coming to light.
With the very greatest of respect to the modellers; as good as those models are - and they far, far , far outclass my own skills, they still look like models.
By: shepsair
- 20th April 2012 at 11:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40E
Love this discussion.
P40's seem to have a tendency to turn during force landing, whether from small surface area (undercarriage pods and torque) I don't know. There are photos of P40's that have turned during crash landings as well as ones that have lost propellers and reduction gear. Not too worried on damage/location and lack of to engine cowlings.
The radiator / cowl is well mangled as you would expect.
As airframes were continually being recovered/recycled in north Africa the pilot would close the cockpit to reduce the amount of sand being blown in. No problem with this being closed.
Photos 4/5 must be real though whether current is the main question.
Must be a photo of someone standing by the P40. Thats what I would do and would show the fashion style/age of photo.
If close to civilisation it would have been found long ago. If not, then must be a lost pilot and cannot believe he would have survived unless picked up by LRDG.
By: Augsburgeagle
- 20th April 2012 at 11:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Got to be real, someone's nicked the clock.
Always the first thing to go..
Incidentally photo knicked from ebay as an example: Gunsight, Clock and compass removed as happened when an aircraft force-landed and the Pilot survived with his wits intact.
By: David Burke
- 20th April 2012 at 12:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The rear fuselage shot would be technically very difficult to model. It would be easier to produce that section as a 100% scale piece of replica airframe
and then damage it. That would take a lot of skill but isnt impossible.
The time it would take to do all that would far outweigh the benefits and anyone who had the skill to do that wouldnt be working on a 'hoax' they would be earning good money doing sheet metal on flyers.
By: shepsair
- 20th April 2012 at 14:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40E / Kittyhawk IA
Additiinal discussion points.
Looks like the airframe is from 260 SAAF. You can see the HS code to the left of the fuselage roundal. Codes were small which fits. Trying to 'see' if there is the remains of an individual letter on the right. There is a vertical bar but not sure this is just a filler line? Otherwise ID letter could be B, D, E, F, H, K, M, N etc - a few options.
260Sqn took over Kittyhawks in Feb 1942 and moved to Theatre.
By: scotavia
- 20th April 2012 at 14:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Faked....motive not known. Skill levels are very high for CGI.
If it was real we would only hear about it after the recovery was in progress or already done. A model maker in Poland would be very aware of how much money this P40 could be worth and with a few hours web surfing contact a variety of potential buyers. When you read the saga of recovering the Hurricane from India you realise just how careful a buyer has to be. Its a minefield out there.
By: Mark12
- 20th April 2012 at 15:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Libya or Egypt?
I have a map reference from 20 or more years back in Egypt of a 'Spitfire' found by an Oil survey team. I had forgotten about that.
They passed the details to the RAF Museum, who were not interested, who in turn passed them on to me.
It is still extremely dangerous to swan around areas of Libya and Egypt because of the the uncharted minefields which they are still arguing who is going to pay for the removal.
I bought this up when the Spitfire surfaced at the El Alamein museum but was advised to be very cautious. An 'adventure' outfit said it would take a three day round trip from Cairo to get me there and back with a minimum of two vehicles and I declined on the basis of cost and the probability of it being buried.
By: paulmcmillan
- 20th April 2012 at 15:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
260 Sqn "Kittyhawk I' bases
Source Air Briatin Squadrons of the RAF
Does not tell us much/if anything! Liby/ Egypt? but does indicate the fluidity of the war in the Desert, 33 bases in 16 Months!
Benina 16 Jan 1942
LG 101 1 Feb 1942
LG 115 15 Feb 1942
Gasr el Arid 10 Mar 1942
Gambut 2 23 May 1942
Bir el Baheira 6 Jun 1942
LG 76 18 Jun 1942
LG 115 & LG 85 19 Jun 1942
LG 97 11 Jul 1942
LG 75 6 Nov 1942
Sidi Azeiz 10 Nov 1942
Gambut Main 12 Nov 1942
Gazala 15 Nov 1942
Martuba 4 17 Nov 1942
Belandah 10 Dec 1942
Marble Arch 19 Dec 1942
Gzina 21 Dec 1942
Hamralet 1 1 Jan 1943
Hamralet 3 4 Jan 1943
Bir Dufan 12 Jan 1943
Sedada 17 Jan 1943
Bir Dufan 19 Jan 1943
Castel Benito 23 Jan 1943
Sorman 7 Feb 1943
El Assa 14 Feb 1943
Ben Gardane 2 Mar 1943
Nefatia 8 Mar 1943
Medenine Main 20 Mar 1943
El Hamma 4 Apr 1943
El Djern 13 Apr 1943
Kairouan 18 Apr 1943
Zuara 19 May 1943
By: Creaking Door
- 20th April 2012 at 16:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, sorry, that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT!
The advanced materials used in the construction of Thunderbird 1 would withstand the impact with the desert much better than a P-40, particularly around the engine cowlings! :diablo:
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 20th April 2012 at 11:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I really want to believe that this is not fake. There are some amazing modellers out there,look no further than our own forum.
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=105300
and another one of his
http://www.p40warhawk.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=5c7a1daed4da060950c1808144663970&topic=17.0
Like the rest of us I await further developments!
Posts: 251
By: beachcomber - 20th April 2012 at 11:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Having had a think on this:
1/ I believe it is not a physical model, when working with materials to represent something on a larger scale they don't look or behave the same. Having looked at the links on other postings they are obviously models.
2/ the lighting which if you have visited Africa you will know that the differences of an African sun which is surreal is correct.
3/ The environment that it is sitting on as has been pointed out is not the same as 70 years ago
So this leaves the option is it a Photoshopped creation, as has been pointed out the level of informed detail is staggering. The technical knowledge of the 'alleged' modeller is brilliant. So you are looking for either a very well informed digital artist with a lot of time on his hands or it's real.
I work in digital imaging and I know that you can achieve amazing results. But then you have to ask yourself why, so I'm putting my foot into the real camp. Whether it's a current picture I don't know.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 20th April 2012 at 11:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, if I was the RAF Museum, and someone had brought it to me, I would be keeping it quiet too, especially if there were any chance at all of recovering it.
I am very much in the 'real' camp, with the caveat that they could be old (20 yrs+) pictures that are only now coming to light.
With the very greatest of respect to the modellers; as good as those models are - and they far, far , far outclass my own skills, they still look like models.
Pictures 4 + 5 both look real; very much so.
Bruce
Posts: 282
By: shepsair - 20th April 2012 at 11:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40E
Love this discussion.
P40's seem to have a tendency to turn during force landing, whether from small surface area (undercarriage pods and torque) I don't know. There are photos of P40's that have turned during crash landings as well as ones that have lost propellers and reduction gear. Not too worried on damage/location and lack of to engine cowlings.
The radiator / cowl is well mangled as you would expect.
As airframes were continually being recovered/recycled in north Africa the pilot would close the cockpit to reduce the amount of sand being blown in. No problem with this being closed.
Photos 4/5 must be real though whether current is the main question.
Must be a photo of someone standing by the P40. Thats what I would do and would show the fashion style/age of photo.
If close to civilisation it would have been found long ago. If not, then must be a lost pilot and cannot believe he would have survived unless picked up by LRDG.
Need more, driving me mad!
Mark
Posts: 544
By: Augsburgeagle - 20th April 2012 at 11:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Incidentally photo knicked from ebay as an example: Gunsight, Clock and compass removed as happened when an aircraft force-landed and the Pilot survived with his wits intact.
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 20th April 2012 at 12:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The rear fuselage shot would be technically very difficult to model. It would be easier to produce that section as a 100% scale piece of replica airframe
and then damage it. That would take a lot of skill but isnt impossible.
The time it would take to do all that would far outweigh the benefits and anyone who had the skill to do that wouldnt be working on a 'hoax' they would be earning good money doing sheet metal on flyers.
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 20th April 2012 at 12:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
From Britmodellers thread this link
http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1334894631/desert+Kittyhawk%2C+comments+about+its+authenticty+from+a+Kittyhawk+owner
That thread is worth reading as well
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=234916834&st=0
HTH but I am sure it will only muddy the water!:)
Posts: 2,004
By: ian_ - 20th April 2012 at 12:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There's a piece of it on eBay!
Listed as Stuka but almost certainly the ripped off radiator gills. :diablo:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190668878175?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_1202
Posts: 282
By: shepsair - 20th April 2012 at 14:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40E / Kittyhawk IA
Additiinal discussion points.
Looks like the airframe is from 260 SAAF. You can see the HS code to the left of the fuselage roundal. Codes were small which fits. Trying to 'see' if there is the remains of an individual letter on the right. There is a vertical bar but not sure this is just a filler line? Otherwise ID letter could be B, D, E, F, H, K, M, N etc - a few options.
260Sqn took over Kittyhawks in Feb 1942 and moved to Theatre.
Least it is one squadron to look at!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crashed_Kittyhawk_I_260_Sqn_in_NAfrica_1942.jpg
regards
Mark
Posts: 2,598
By: paulmcmillan - 20th April 2012 at 14:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mark typo is
260 Sqn RAF
If anyone can ID the Type of Kittyhawk - we can get a better idea of dates
260 Sqn had
Kittyhawk I, II Feb 1942 to May 1943
Kittyhawk III Dec 1942 to April 1944
Paul
Posts: 2,810
By: scotavia - 20th April 2012 at 14:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Faked....motive not known. Skill levels are very high for CGI.
If it was real we would only hear about it after the recovery was in progress or already done. A model maker in Poland would be very aware of how much money this P40 could be worth and with a few hours web surfing contact a variety of potential buyers. When you read the saga of recovering the Hurricane from India you realise just how careful a buyer has to be. Its a minefield out there.
Posts: 282
By: shepsair - 20th April 2012 at 14:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40E
Paul
Posted more on WIX
including
http://www.smashwords.com/books/download/44094/6/latest/1/0/kittyhawk-pilot.txt
Yep, 260Sqn RAF. Lists bases and missing pilots!
As it has the older style yellow roundal, would say Kittyhawk IA. The Kittyhawk III photos show the later roundal style.
regards
Mark
Posts: 2,598
By: paulmcmillan - 20th April 2012 at 14:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Mark
Buz Busby's (probably the worlds authority on the history of the P-40) comments on WIX are very interesting
Paul
Posts: 4,996
By: AlanR - 20th April 2012 at 14:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Is there anyone on here who has connections within the RAF, to see if they
have actually been asked to ID the aircraft ?
Which department would be involved ?
Posts: 10,029
By: Mark12 - 20th April 2012 at 15:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Libya or Egypt?
I have a map reference from 20 or more years back in Egypt of a 'Spitfire' found by an Oil survey team. I had forgotten about that.
They passed the details to the RAF Museum, who were not interested, who in turn passed them on to me.
It is still extremely dangerous to swan around areas of Libya and Egypt because of the the uncharted minefields which they are still arguing who is going to pay for the removal.
I bought this up when the Spitfire surfaced at the El Alamein museum but was advised to be very cautious. An 'adventure' outfit said it would take a three day round trip from Cairo to get me there and back with a minimum of two vehicles and I declined on the basis of cost and the probability of it being buried.
I wonder if this could be the same aircraft. :)
There was nothing visible on Google Earth.
Mark
Posts: 282
By: shepsair - 20th April 2012 at 15:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40E
Of course to the lay person, everything with a roundal is a Spitfire!
20 years ago, if the photos had said 1982 or 92 I would believe it more.
If one and the same and 20 years ago I would gues now long gone :(
Mark
Posts: 2,598
By: paulmcmillan - 20th April 2012 at 15:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
260 Sqn "Kittyhawk I' bases
Source Air Briatin Squadrons of the RAF
Does not tell us much/if anything! Liby/ Egypt? but does indicate the fluidity of the war in the Desert, 33 bases in 16 Months!
Benina 16 Jan 1942
LG 101 1 Feb 1942
LG 115 15 Feb 1942
Gasr el Arid 10 Mar 1942
Gambut 2 23 May 1942
Bir el Baheira 6 Jun 1942
LG 76 18 Jun 1942
LG 115 & LG 85 19 Jun 1942
LG 97 11 Jul 1942
LG 75 6 Nov 1942
Sidi Azeiz 10 Nov 1942
Gambut Main 12 Nov 1942
Gazala 15 Nov 1942
Martuba 4 17 Nov 1942
Belandah 10 Dec 1942
Marble Arch 19 Dec 1942
Gzina 21 Dec 1942
Hamralet 1 1 Jan 1943
Hamralet 3 4 Jan 1943
Bir Dufan 12 Jan 1943
Sedada 17 Jan 1943
Bir Dufan 19 Jan 1943
Castel Benito 23 Jan 1943
Sorman 7 Feb 1943
El Assa 14 Feb 1943
Ben Gardane 2 Mar 1943
Nefatia 8 Mar 1943
Medenine Main 20 Mar 1943
El Hamma 4 Apr 1943
El Djern 13 Apr 1943
Kairouan 18 Apr 1943
Zuara 19 May 1943
Posts: 2,598
By: paulmcmillan - 20th April 2012 at 15:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok can anyone tell if those photos were taken using film or digital ??
Posts: 442
By: Dobbins - 20th April 2012 at 15:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here's a model desert for comparison:
http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/thunder/ep5/4.jpg
http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/thunder/ep5/17.jpg
Personally I don't see much difference!
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 20th April 2012 at 16:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, sorry, that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT!
The advanced materials used in the construction of Thunderbird 1 would withstand the impact with the desert much better than a P-40, particularly around the engine cowlings! :diablo: