Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

Read the forum code of contact

Profile picture for user DC Page

Member for

13 years 1 month

Posts: 313

I am struggling with context here. Why was this initially posted on a modelling forum?

Modeling sites have always been a major source of historic photos. They have often done years of research on particular models and do "walk around" detail shots. Sometimes they have rare photos and details that even the historians don't know or have gotten wrong.

For the conspiracy/hoax theorists, maybe they put it up to show off their work.

I'm' still amazed at how fixated you and others are regarding baseless speculation on why a person would take this particular shot and not that one. You're letting your imagination run wild with no idea why they took these shots, if they are the only ones, and why they chose only these shots to reveal to you and the world. Your thinking and imagination is seriously flawed.

Regarding the spots on the aft port wing root, it's OIL. Not sweat or water. Use the same tricks I mentioned earlier and look at it again. There are many interesting details that nobody else seems to have discovered yet, just waiting for you to discover if you'll use a scientific approach and some critical thinking.

Some of you have a very bright future in UFO and Elvis research.

Thanks to shepsair and Mark12 for the details.

Profile picture for user DCK

Member for

15 years 9 months

Posts: 1,318

Some of you have a very bright future in UFO and Elvis research.

Not sure about Elvis, but for the first one, read "The Cometa Report". It might be interesting. :rolleyes:

Member for

21 years 11 months

Posts: 9,780

Tankbarrel -often impact will jar the mechanism of an asi and freeze it.
Therefore by looking at the registered speed on the asi might give a clue to impact speed to see if the damage ties up with indicated speed.

Profile picture for user Mark V

Member for

18 years 5 months

Posts: 2,982

Tankbarrel -often impact will jar the mechanism of an asi and freeze it.
Therefore by looking at the registered speed on the asi might give a clue to impact speed to see if the damage ties up with indicated speed.

That happens in high energy impacts, not a forced landing.

Profile picture for user Mark V

Member for

18 years 5 months

Posts: 2,982

I am struggling with context here. Why was this initially posted on a modelling forum?
Because the 'friend' of the discoverer was a member of said site and the membership are interested in historic aircraft.

Looking at the external photo in particular, is there anyone out there still claiming this to be a model?

Don't think so - I recreated that photo today, from an elevated position (to simulate an aircraft on its belly), with the hatch door slightly open, you cannot see the hatch opening as the door is in effect closer to you. I also note that every other tiny detail is absolutley correct, panel lines, numbers of screws, shapes of skins and relative position etc - perfect.

As regards markings 75-88-465-289 shows lots of decals including North Africa Stars and Stripes, Brit and US markings but not "the door" markings.

I love that drawing! Pete, the lettering on the door does not feature on the factory drawing, it looks hand painted to me - or at best a 'home-made' stencil applied in the field, err desert.

Profile picture for user DC Page

Member for

13 years 1 month

Posts: 313

P-40N Preflight Inspection

For those who haven't had the fortune of being around a P-40 while it is on the ground, here is a pre-flight walk around inspection that shows the panel in question and should give you some rough perspective of what you are looking at in the photos. Not exactly like the one on the Kittyhawk, but close enough for our purposes.

Relevant section begins a 7:15 but the whole clip is useful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xeuaBsqbx4

Profile picture for user Bruce

Member for

21 years 11 months

Posts: 8,463

Its worth noting for a moment that most of the people who are actively involved in Historic aircraft operation and preservation who have posted in this thread think its real.

Beau VI - has been involved in preservation and operation of these things since the beginning.

Mark 12 - has been involved since well before there was a preservation movement

Mark V - has access to a P40, which he has been eyeing up today

shepsair - is one of the foremost writers, researchers and historians concerned with recovered aircraft.

These people know their stuff.

Still, for the 'Its a model' brigade; will someone please show me a model that looks even half as good as this? No-one has yet!

Bruce

Member for

21 years 11 months

Posts: 1,331

Its worth noting for a moment that most of the people who are actively involved in Historic aircraft operation and preservation who have posted in this thread think its real.

Beau VI - has been involved in preservation and operation of these things since the beginning.

Mark 12 - has been involved since well before there was a preservation movement

Mark V - has access to a P40, which he has been eyeing up today

shepsair - is one of the foremost writers, researchers and historians concerned with recovered aircraft.

These people know their stuff.


You're too modest, Bruce! You DEFINITELY belong on that list!
Profile picture for user shepsair

Member for

12 years 1 month

Posts: 282

P40E

Eddie

Totally agree.

Bruce - Thank you. Very much appreciated.

Like I said, as soon as we know the serial everything will be revealed very very quickly (though maybe not to much if it becomes a prospective article which is definitely on the cards!:)

Whether it is current or all taken when we were running around playing football, wearing flairs and chasing girls with ponytails is another matter!

Mark

Profile picture for user Bruce

Member for

21 years 11 months

Posts: 8,463

I'm happy to play referee on this one, but its outside of my area of expertise.

Mark, I still wear Flares, but hate football.....

Bruce

Member for

21 years 11 months

Posts: 9,780

Mark V - An asi will not just freeze on high speed impact -break off a pitot tube and often the air is trapped .

Looking at the instruments - the asi is reading nothing - the altimeter seems to be registering 400 feet -the vario has definately jumped .

In all of this its clear to anyone who has experience of sheet metal that the damage to the rear fuselage is entirely consistant with the surroundings and the evidence of how the aircraft has impacted.

Its possible to build the section of rear fuselage to the degree we see in the photographs but to then damage it and keep it credible is incredibly difficult.
The forces involved in making that damage could only be as the result of a crash -pulling rivets to the extent they are would require a very high degree of talent and some kind of hydraulic equipment to pull the aluminium due to the forces involved . Its just not credible that someone would go to that effort.

Member for

21 years 11 months

Posts: 9,780

I envisage that an identity will not immediately be forthcoming - there must already be at least one warbird operator seriously looking at recovering this machine if its current.

Profile picture for user Tillerman

Member for

16 years 2 months

Posts: 298

I am no expert in table top photography or CGI, but I am sure the pictures are fake. They just don't look real at the first glance, they just don't look like the real thing. Something is not good with the light, the focus, the sharpness and the light. When I look at them my gut feeling screams FAKE.

Someone is pulling legs here and I bet he has great fun in following this discussion between amateurs, experts, believers and non-believers, I think.

Tillerman.

Member for

17 years 6 months

Posts: 917

Still, for the 'Its a model' brigade; will someone please show me a model that looks even half as good as this? No-one has yet!
Bruce

Hi
I am now in two minds over real or fake.

but here is a model link for example

http://www.p40warhawk.com/smf/index.php?topic=17.30
cheers
Jerry

Member for

21 years 11 months

Posts: 9,780

Tillerman - simple answer ! The cockpit is 100% real -I know of no P-40 that matches the condition of this machine .

Therefore this is a 'new' P-40

Profile picture for user shepsair

Member for

12 years 1 month

Posts: 282

P40

David,

I am sure the identity can be narrowed down.

Short and easy way is to see a photo of the serial or construction number.

Long and easy way is to go to PRO/Kew and look at 260Sqn records and also Form 78's construction cards.

Assuming it is 260Sqn hopefully dates for missing Kittyhawk IA and missing pilots can be worked out.

Been promised some more photos so we will see.

Whether a collector is on the case depends on when these photos were taken.

Mark

Member for

14 years 9 months

Posts: 354

It looks real to me .

Profile picture for user vulcan558

Member for

17 years 8 months

Posts: 406

Pictures look very real for me,
Would have to go in to the realms of Macro mode for some or all if it was a model, cannot see any macro in these pics, distortion, barrelling, pin chusion, etc etc etc.

Profile picture for user Bruce

Member for

21 years 11 months

Posts: 8,463

Hi
I am now in two minds over real or fake.

but here is a model link for example

http://www.p40warhawk.com/smf/index.php?topic=17.30
cheers
Jerry

Jerry,

That is a brilliant, stupendous model - quite superb.

But it still looks like a model. Nothing on it compares to photos 4+5.

Its real, but when?

Bruce