By: paulmcmillan
- 25th April 2012 at 08:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Contempory report on Coppings Loss from Kittyhawk Pilot by James 'Stocky' Edwards and Michel Lavigne
First Published in 1983
28th June 1942
"The order was given to evacuate immediately," Eddie wrote. "All serviceable aircraft were flown off by the light of a few drums set on fire. They landed under similar conditions at LG-106." The Kittyhawks landed at their new base about thirty miles east of LG-09 in the dark. It was about nine o'clock and the day had been long for most, but not long enough for F/Sgt Copping. He didn't make it over the ground convoys who fumbled their way to LG-106 in
the dark, pushing their trucks through the heavy sand.
Fear gripped the fighter pilots when they heard their orders on 29June. "Retreat again," was the command that came down. The-German spearhead had advanced confidently all day as the Desert Air Force moved further east. By nightfall, the Afrika Korps had reached an area twenty-five miles south of El Daba, providing the Luftwaffe with operational landing grounds close to the scene of the next battle. 260 Squadron of the RAF and the South African fighter squadrons were ordered back from LG-105 and LG-106 to LG-85 at Amriya during the day. ..
Just one note. The book later mentions that Edwards flew ET574 on "13 July 1942" however this could be a typo in book or his logbook (ET575 also on sqn) or the fact he listed his flights by Sqn code letter rather than Serial
Note: No mention of Copping flight to fix aircraft - maybe as this book was written 40 years later they just assumed he was paert of the retreat
Paul
By: Bruce
- 25th April 2012 at 08:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Having had another look through the pictures, it is now my feeling that the pilot detonated the IFF in the rear fuselage, and this is what has caused the damage around the radio bay. There doesnt seem to be any other combat damage on the aircraft.
That explosion might have caused the damage to the batteries and to the radio.
The odd thing though is that the IFF timer is set to 'Off', though of course who knows what has happened to it in the intervening years!
Bruce
New
By: Anonymous
- 25th April 2012 at 08:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Bruce
Could it be that, for some reason, the IFF desrtruction charge self detonated due to a fault and this, ultimately, caused the loss of the aircraft?
I have come across at least two recoded instances of this before.
By: paulmcmillan
- 25th April 2012 at 09:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Finally
I have got a copy of a few of the 260 SQN ORBS from the time as Buz says the detail is minimal to say the least and no serial to sqn code match ups. probably due the fludity of Sqn movement at the time
Also ET574 should be USAAF 41-35928 and Curtiss C/N 19761 (Corrected)
I say should as while Curtiss C/N are supposed to be consecutive there are a few times when they are not what you think they are. Most notably the TFC P-47G (built by Curtiss) for instance is in the right general area (within a few numbers) for its predicted C/N but not exactly.. - It is possible that on production line airfames had to be moved back due to damage etc
By: H87A-2
- 25th April 2012 at 09:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Finally
Also ET574 should be USAAF 41-25250 and Curtiss C/N 19761
I say should as while Curtiss C/N are supposed to be consecutive there are a few times when they are not what you think they are. Most notably the TFC P-47G (built by Curtiss) for instance is in the right general area (within a few numbers) for its predicted C/N but not exactly.. - It is possible that on production line airfames had to be moved back due to damage etc
Paul
Hi Paul
I have the Curtiss records and yes they (construction numbers and serials) dont always run in Sequence, in some cases Construction numbers have also been used twice (just to mess things up for resrachers later in life).
Best check your serial as its not correct> This aircraft was from the second batch of 1080 aircraft so should be 41-35xxx or 41-36xxx.
By: DazDaMan
- 25th April 2012 at 09:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nothing I can add to the proceedings, but have to say that this has been one of the most fascinating threads in recent memory, from the "is it or isn't it" photos, to the revelations of the aircraft and pilot's eventual fates.
By: Mark12
- 25th April 2012 at 09:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
59 Repair and Salvage Unit was operating in this area and had been based at Amriya. For an aircraft capable of being ferried, repairs should have been well within its scope, leaving major repairs to the operations at Cairo and Ismailia.
The 'Stocky' Edwards report suggests a picture of rapid and hasty retreat eastwards, behind the the Alamein line, in poor light or darkness, F/Sgt Copping paying the ultimate price.
By: teejaymac
- 25th April 2012 at 11:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
EDIT!! Please note that the above info was originally posted over on Hyperscale (I did mention that) by Terry McGrady (I unwittingly omitted that bit) Appologies to Terry for missing the credit.
By: Dobbins
- 25th April 2012 at 11:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Assuming it was Copping, they obviously found his body so he must have successfully made contact and succumbed before they reached him or a search party got there too late.
By: paulmcmillan
- 25th April 2012 at 11:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Last known "alive date" is usually used (unless any evidence is available to suggest a later date). In this case if an aircraft was lost on 28 June 1942, the pilot Date of Death would be recorded as 28th June 1942
System does have his problems and not 100% accurate IIRC some RAF deaths on the Lancastria in 1940 have dates of death on or after the ship was lost
Posts: 282
By: shepsair - 25th April 2012 at 08:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40
Hi
I agree with Buz as well. Until we know a c/n and serial it is all conjecture.
This is where Copping would have been heading for I believe.
From RAF Flying Training and Support Units - Sturtivant/Hamlin?Halley by Air Britain Publications.
No 3 (Middle East) Aircraft Repair Unit was formed 15.5.42 , ex Kittyhawk Repair Section at ISMAILIA, Egypt which is right up by the canal.
regards
Mark
Posts: 2,024
By: D1566 - 25th April 2012 at 08:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for the info :)
Posts: 2,598
By: paulmcmillan - 25th April 2012 at 08:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Contempory report on Coppings Loss from Kittyhawk Pilot by James 'Stocky' Edwards and Michel Lavigne
First Published in 1983
28th June 1942
"The order was given to evacuate immediately," Eddie wrote. "All serviceable aircraft were flown off by the light of a few drums set on fire. They landed under similar conditions at LG-106." The Kittyhawks landed at their new base about thirty miles east of LG-09 in the dark. It was about nine o'clock and the day had been long for most, but not long enough for F/Sgt Copping. He didn't make it over the ground convoys who fumbled their way to LG-106 in
the dark, pushing their trucks through the heavy sand.
Fear gripped the fighter pilots when they heard their orders on 29June. "Retreat again," was the command that came down. The-German spearhead had advanced confidently all day as the Desert Air Force moved further east. By nightfall, the Afrika Korps had reached an area twenty-five miles south of El Daba, providing the Luftwaffe with operational landing grounds close to the scene of the next battle. 260 Squadron of the RAF and the South African fighter squadrons were ordered back from LG-105 and LG-106 to LG-85 at Amriya during the day. ..
Just one note. The book later mentions that Edwards flew ET574 on "13 July 1942" however this could be a typo in book or his logbook (ET575 also on sqn) or the fact he listed his flights by Sqn code letter rather than Serial
Note: No mention of Copping flight to fix aircraft - maybe as this book was written 40 years later they just assumed he was paert of the retreat
Paul
Posts: 2,598
By: paulmcmillan - 25th April 2012 at 08:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Buz
Thanks for eliminating that!
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 25th April 2012 at 08:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Having had another look through the pictures, it is now my feeling that the pilot detonated the IFF in the rear fuselage, and this is what has caused the damage around the radio bay. There doesnt seem to be any other combat damage on the aircraft.
That explosion might have caused the damage to the batteries and to the radio.
The odd thing though is that the IFF timer is set to 'Off', though of course who knows what has happened to it in the intervening years!
Bruce
By: Anonymous - 25th April 2012 at 08:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Bruce
Could it be that, for some reason, the IFF desrtruction charge self detonated due to a fault and this, ultimately, caused the loss of the aircraft?
I have come across at least two recoded instances of this before.
All conjecture, of course....but how fascinating!
Posts: 2,598
By: paulmcmillan - 25th April 2012 at 09:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Finally
I have got a copy of a few of the 260 SQN ORBS from the time as Buz says the detail is minimal to say the least and no serial to sqn code match ups. probably due the fludity of Sqn movement at the time
Also ET574 should be USAAF 41-35928 and Curtiss C/N 19761 (Corrected)
I say should as while Curtiss C/N are supposed to be consecutive there are a few times when they are not what you think they are. Most notably the TFC P-47G (built by Curtiss) for instance is in the right general area (within a few numbers) for its predicted C/N but not exactly.. - It is possible that on production line airfames had to be moved back due to damage etc
Paul
Posts: 31
By: H87A-2 - 25th April 2012 at 09:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Paul
I have the Curtiss records and yes they (construction numbers and serials) dont always run in Sequence, in some cases Construction numbers have also been used twice (just to mess things up for resrachers later in life).
Best check your serial as its not correct> This aircraft was from the second batch of 1080 aircraft so should be 41-35xxx or 41-36xxx.
Buz
Posts: 18,359
By: DazDaMan - 25th April 2012 at 09:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nothing I can add to the proceedings, but have to say that this has been one of the most fascinating threads in recent memory, from the "is it or isn't it" photos, to the revelations of the aircraft and pilot's eventual fates.
It's why I still come back here.
:)
Posts: 2,598
By: paulmcmillan - 25th April 2012 at 09:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yep thanks missed the cntract switch over.. Corrected original post
Posts: 10,029
By: Mark12 - 25th April 2012 at 09:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
59 Repair and Salvage Unit was operating in this area and had been based at Amriya. For an aircraft capable of being ferried, repairs should have been well within its scope, leaving major repairs to the operations at Cairo and Ismailia.
The 'Stocky' Edwards report suggests a picture of rapid and hasty retreat eastwards, behind the the Alamein line, in poor light or darkness, F/Sgt Copping paying the ultimate price.
"You know what to do with the lame ducks, chief".
Mark
Posts: 226
By: Batman - 25th April 2012 at 10:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Buz and his mate Gordy are among the world's most renowned P-40 researchers. It's great to see him contributing to this most fascinating discovery, so welcome.
Buz, you might also like to check the pprune link:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/483378-desert-gives-up-one-rafs-finest.html
Posts: 10
By: teejaymac - 25th April 2012 at 11:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No problems Steve All is forgiven :)
Terry McGrady
Posts: 442
By: Dobbins - 25th April 2012 at 11:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Assuming it was Copping, they obviously found his body so he must have successfully made contact and succumbed before they reached him or a search party got there too late.
Whatever the story, this gets more fascinating...
Posts: 797
By: Atcham Tower - 25th April 2012 at 11:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not necessarily, as the Alamein Memorial commemorates those with no known grave.
By: Anonymous - 25th April 2012 at 11:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Indeed. It seems no trace was found of Copping and he is still missing.
Posts: 911
By: RAFRochford - 25th April 2012 at 11:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Terry;
Thanks for the understanding! I think I got over excited and all forum decorum went out of the window!
Great to have you onboard the discussion!
Regards;
Steve
Posts: 442
By: Dobbins - 25th April 2012 at 11:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ahhhhhhhh. ok.
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 25th April 2012 at 11:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What would be the normal CWGC procedure for dating the death of somebody missing, missing-presumed-dead and subsequently declared dead?
Wouldn’t the ‘last known’ date be used as the date of death?
Posts: 2,598
By: paulmcmillan - 25th April 2012 at 11:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Last known "alive date" is usually used (unless any evidence is available to suggest a later date). In this case if an aircraft was lost on 28 June 1942, the pilot Date of Death would be recorded as 28th June 1942
System does have his problems and not 100% accurate IIRC some RAF deaths on the Lancastria in 1940 have dates of death on or after the ship was lost