Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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The fact that the parachute canopy (if complete) is near the aircraft suggests to me that the pilot is quite nearby. The canopy (or a section of it) is a very useful piece of survival kit, it would act as a sunshade by day and give warmth at night. From what I've read, is that when delirium sets in the victim often goes walkabout but usually doesn't get far. Let's hope he's found soon. Questions, if it is the Flt Sgt speculated he must have transmitted some info about his plotted course to give one source the statement "wrong course set", as appeared in an early post. Any one any idea what effect the U/c locked down would have on engine cooling and subsequent range and speed.

John

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The MOD does not have a JPAC. Nearest equivalent is the JCCC, but they do not have field-operatives in the same way. Given what we know, one would assume these are the Polish oil exploration guys who first revealed the P40 to the world. Whilst they could be operatives working for the British Embassy, I'd suggest their identity is not particularly relevant, overall, to the story of the P40.

Thanks for the good intel. No you're correct, the identities of the gentlmen have no bearing on the the larger more important story here. I just found it curious for the selective concealment and the fact they all appear to be wearing Mil-Spec desert boots. My first thought was that these were UK representatives of some sort. It could be coincidence as anyone can buy these, but it would seem these guys all shop at the same place :) (Mine were issued to me). Just wishful thinking on my part that somewhere this is a high priority on someone's desk.

Based on all the media provided and accounting for the number of different individuals seen and varying angles of daylight, it seem conceivible to me, that the wreck has been visited at least 3 times and maybe as much as 5 times.

Perhaps Shepair will be able to enlighten us all at some point as he seems to have a dialog with Mr Jakub Perka. From my point of view as a veteran I hope in the overall "Big-Picture", the machine doesn't garner more attention and more importance than the location of the mortal remains of it's last occupant. Which I don't see as the case here from you fine folks. You all seem very concerned with trying to ascertain the identity of it's pilot and I applaud that.

Shay
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Looking at the cockpit pictures again, does anyone know what the good size panel is on the left hand side above the throttle??

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P40

Shay

Hope they have been given permission? The website where they were originally posted clearly indicates they are copyrighted.

does lifting them and putting them in a report class as breaching copyright even if the photos are credited?

Not aware Jakub has given permission but will ask him later.

Mark

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I wonder if Vintage Wings have access to Stocky Edwards Logbook for the period and see how he recorded his flights?

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The writer of the Vintage Wings article doesn't seem to know the difference between A Kittyhawk I (P-40E) and a Kittyhawk III (P-40K). The B&W photos are a much later HS*B.

I'd be interested to know how many 260 Sqn machines were coded "B"

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Looking at the cockpit pictures again, does anyone know what the good size panel is on the left hand side above the throttle??

That is the instruction placard for flaps and gear operation. The ones I am familiar with have a flap diagram on the left half, and the right half of the placard details gear operation. The ones I have seen are about half the size of the one seen in this aircraft, and are held in place by 4 rivets and the top edge is flush below the edge of the frame to which it is riveted. This placard's large size may indicate it contained additional instructions or procedures.

To anyone who wants a quick understanding of the P-40 series cockpit I would recommend the late Jeff Ethell's "Roaring Glory" series of videos. It's a complicated bird with a lot of old technology. Ethell points out that these aircraft have to be started and launched fairly quickly or they will overheat in a hurry. He also says that it was much more maneuverable than the P-51 Mustang. He said the P-51 felt like it was "cast in cement" when compared to the maneuverability of the P-40 series.

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P40

Max

As they did not have a long life due to conditions and combat and belly landings/repair and recoding, I am sure there would be at least a couple of dozen P40's with 260Sqn coded B during the North African Campaign.

As you said, does not know the VintageWings writer difference between the Kittyhawk IA and the Kittyhawk II nor the fact the roundels are clearly different and the difference to the fin/fuselage fillet etc.

Obviously have not been following the story on WIX or Key either. Just writing a paragraph of conjecture for the sake of it.

Mark

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Max

As they did not have a long life due to conditions and combat and belly landings/repair and recoding, I am sure there would be at least a couple of dozen P40's with 260Sqn coded B during the North African Campaign.

As you said, does not know the VintageWings writer difference between the Kittyhawk IA and the Kittyhawk II nor the fact the roundels are clearly different and the difference to the fin/fuselage fillet etc.

Obviously have not been following the story on WIX or Key either. Just writing a paragraph of conjecture for the sake of it.

Mark

Hi Mark... the article does mention that the B&W photos are of a later mark Kittyhawk if you look at the captions properly. I don't think he is suggesting that they are the same aircraft at all.

Cheers,
Richard

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He says the P40 slid for about 100m across the ground after initial impact which would be hard to tell from the photos so maybe he has been in contact?

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It reads to me a bit as a collector staking his claim...

They do state that the aircraft is the one (and they will put money on it; I wonder how much..) they have based their aircraft on. It seems unlikely.

There is nothing to gain from that article; we can draw no conclusions from those pictures yet.

Bruce

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P40

Richard

Think they are amending the article every now and then. Definitely changed the captions on the wartime photos.

Standard procedure was never to put down the undercarriage in unknown terrain.

Interestingly it was a nearly full moon that night but of course don't know the weather conditions.

regards

Mark

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[QUOTE=shepsair;1883323]Richard

Think they are amending the article every now and then. Definitely changed the captions on the wartime photos.

Standard procedure was never to put down the undercarriage in unknown terrain."

I think it was updated after my read of it. Article is pretty "me too".

Agreed on the U/C being kept up for such landings as SOP, as I alluded to in an earlier post. That evidence does point to a very specific A/C.

One thing the article does have (likely) right, is the conclusion that it landed with power on.

If my 112 Sqn records are any indication, there could have been 6-12 HS*B marked Kittys.

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[QUOTE=Max Wedge;1883351]

Richard

Think they are amending the article every now and then. Definitely changed the captions on the wartime photos.

Standard procedure was never to put down the undercarriage in unknown terrain."

I think it was updated after my read of it. Article is pretty "me too".

Agreed on the U/C being kept up for such landings as SOP, as I alluded to in an earlier post. That evidence does point to a very specific A/C.

One thing the article does have (likely) right, is the conclusion that it landed with power on.

If my 112 Sqn records are any indication, there could have been 6-12 HS*B marked Kittys.


Hi Max
AK670 was a B but that went on to 4SAAF . There were also 3 KittyhawkII that were Bs FL229 , 280 and 305 along with FR350 (MKIII)
Possibly more , but these are the ones I've can ID at the moment
Cheers
Terry

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Regarding the events of the F/Sgt Copping's last flight. Please someone help me to understand. According to "Kittyhawk Pilot": On the night of the 28th No. 260 was evacuting LG.09? And flying to LG.106? Am I understanding this correctly?

I have not been able to find a location listed for LG.09, where is it's present day location?

And LG 106 is/was in or around El Daba?

Thanks

Shay
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If you were coming in for a belly landing would you leave power on or cut it at the last moment? Perhaps he was trying to land on the wheels thinking he could get it off again.

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Pilot info, pending it is indeed F/Sgt Copping

Here is some pilot info, if it is indeed him and only time will tell:

Name: Dennis Charles Hughmore Copping
Rank: Flight Sergeant
Service No: 785025
Date of Death: 28/06/1942
Age: 24
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 260 Sqdn.
Panel Reference: Column 249.
Memorial: ALAMEIN MEMORIAL

Additional Information:
Son of Sydney Omer Copping & Adelaide Copping,
of Southend-on-Sea, Essex.

Two listed phone numbers in the area in the UK with this last name. Really need that airframe serial number!

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OK I found the locations of LG.009 and LG.106 and mapped them out on Google Earth. They are only 25+ miles apart.

What I don't understand is if you go by the Youtube vid descriptions they were recorded in the Al Wadi Al Jadid Desert which is way way south. In fact measuring from LG.009 the AWAJD's most northern border is 230 miles away. Surely well within the range of the Kittyhawk but Copping would have known the difference in flight times.

25 miles vs 230+ miles seems like a big difference. Any thoughts?

Shay
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Re difference beween LG.009 and LG.106 you have to remember Kttyhawk Pilot was written 40 years later using the memories and log books of Stocky Edwards and the data then available. It is likely they looked at the date and assumed Copping was evacuating with the rest of them when he went missing. However, we also know that the aircraft he was flying ET574 was also supposed to be damaged, flying with its undercarriage down and on its way to a repair unit. It is likely he was told to fly the not so lame duck back to a repair unit further way.