By: Dobbins
- 28th April 2012 at 11:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dobbins -have you seen the state of some of the British aircraft wrecks in this country after our fellow countrymen have finished molesting them !
yes! but this particular one may prove to be extra poignant. Don't get me wrong, all wrecks have some kind of story attached but the thought of someone being alone in that hostile environment for god knows how long before probably succumbing to heat and dehydration is quite moving.
By: TonyT
- 28th April 2012 at 13:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
... after our Egyptian friends have finished molesting it
You simply do not know, disarming it was a must and would be carried the world over, stuff like the sight dissapearing, well perhaps items seen as high value and easily removable by potential scavengers have simply been removed to place them in safe keeping.
By: D1566
- 28th April 2012 at 14:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
yes! but this particular one may prove to be extra poignant. Don't get me wrong, all wrecks have some kind of story attached but the thought of someone being alone in that hostile environment for god knows how long before probably succumbing to heat and dehydration is quite moving.
This was a rather poignant one, much closer to home, but it didn't stop the site being stripped. Not a scrap left these days. I just hope that more respect is shown in the P-40 case.
By: brewerjerry
- 28th April 2012 at 18:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This was a rather poignant one, much closer to home, but it didn't stop the site being stripped. Not a scrap left these days. I just hope that more respect is shown in the P-40 case.
Hi
the linked page attributes the lack of parts remaining to :-
'A visit to these today sites reveals little, they have now been made difficult to locate due to trail motor cycling in the area. This has churned up the peaty mountainside, resulting in a minor landslide near the Lysander, taking away the sparse evidence of these tragic accidents.'
By: shepsair
- 28th April 2012 at 20:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40
OK, an archaeology question of sorts. Would be interesting to know general thoughts on this as it has not really been discussed.
The writing on the hatch.
It seems to say
COWL BUTTON
TO BE LOCKED
SHUT BEFORE FLIGHT
Q - Was this applied in the factory - if so does not seems to be a clear stencil, more hand painted.
Q - Is it two separate phases 'Cowl button to be locked' and later 'shut before flight'.
Q - The writing seems to have been painted 'above/around' the grey modified latch plate.
so, if not factory
Q - was it applied at the MU when assembled when the modified hatch latch was fitted?
Q - if this was the case and it was painted over the roundel would it have been painted over before issue to 260Sqn. Also a note in white paint over white roundel so does not make it readable!
Trouble is it seems to have survived the best which seems to indicate it was not applied last though was applied with thick paint by brush?
Bit a quandary. No evidence on other P40's ever having this though not many show the modified hatch latch.
By: Lazy8
- 28th April 2012 at 21:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Trouble is it seems to have survived the best which seems to indicate it was not applied last though was applied with thick paint by brush?
It may well have been applied last, although the lack of such an inscription in contemporary photographs is puzzling. What we might be looking at is not the painting itself, but simply those bits of original paint that took longer to wear off because they had an extra layer on top. To me, it looks a little to clear for that to be true, but it's certainly possible.
By: Dobbins
- 28th April 2012 at 21:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It looks like some notice retro painted over the roundel in the field. Maybe the hatch had been damaged and repaired? Either way, it makes this Kitty unique!
By: TonyT
- 28th April 2012 at 22:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I wouldn't take none standard markings as anything to read into something, often if they have had a problem or no other stencils etc are available markings are just added in the style of the originator..
There is a 14 Sqn Jag at Cosford with No Hinges Fitted in ground equipment yellow and hand painted on the port door in quite big letters....simply because I had no stencils, the only brush I could fine was a bit big and yellow was the only paint I could find at the time that would stand out, when the Jag would go for a major the sheared hinges would have been renewed and the markings obliterated / overpainted, however it never got that far, so it has my localised Squadron stencil markings still on it, indeed it has a more proffessionally produced item now adjacent to mine.
By: shepsair
- 28th April 2012 at 22:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lazy8/Dobbins
Can't decide.
Believe the Modification to the hatch was undertaken post construction (seems unpainted) and probably at the MU in Egypt prior to issue to the squadron.
The hatch popping was probably due to the crash. Otherwise the pilot would have undone it himself and it would not have been forced open. The pilot would have done that to destroyed the IFF by all accounts.
Still not sure.
Tony T - so not factory. Would be MU or in the field?
By: TonyT
- 28th April 2012 at 22:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We would add stuff in the field, if we had mods come out that could be done on the squadron we would, any other stuff would get added as they went through 2nd line maintenance. Hinges on a jag were in the F4 fuselage tanks so would be done at MU level If i remember correctly, as you virtually had the strip it to get to it? The battery and radio appears out so he may have opened the hatch to see if he could get off a signal, however with her spine broken I agree it would have probably popped.
By: ian_
- 29th April 2012 at 00:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I believe there was a problem with radio hatch locks on P40s. Reading accident reports at the PRO, several UK crashes were attributed to the hatch breaking free and damaging the tail. The extra lock may have been a fairly standard mod based on these findings. The stencilling does not look factory applied. The Curtiss stencilling I've seen is applied as a decal, rather than painted on.
By: Peter
- 29th April 2012 at 04:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A friend has asked that I post this..
Could it be P-40K (Raf serial) FR300 of 260 sq., formerly of of 450 Sq. down on Mar.18, 1943 in the desert after engine failure and gear down landing with gear collapsing. (from Air-Britain serials FA100-FZ999)
By: brewerjerry
- 29th April 2012 at 05:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A friend has asked that I post this..
Could it be P-40K (Raf serial) FR300 of 260 sq., formerly of of 450 Sq. down on Mar.18, 1943 in the desert after engine failure and gear down landing with gear collapsing. (from Air-Britain serials FA100-FZ999)
Hi
An option like any, but it seems to infer a knowledge of the crash conditions.....gear collapsing....... if so this aircraft could have been located at the time ?
cheers
Jerry
By: D1566
- 29th April 2012 at 06:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi
the linked page attributes the lack of parts remaining to :-
'A visit to these today sites reveals little, they have now been made difficult to locate due to trail motor cycling in the area. This has churned up the peaty mountainside, resulting in a minor landslide near the Lysander, taking away the sparse evidence of these tragic accidents.'
Not due to souviner hunters.
I read that, but last time I went up there, about 12 or so years ago, there was no sign of motor cycling activities ... and no wreckage. Besides, motor cyclists are unlikely to have removed the engine from the Spitfire, which was there in living memory.
By: shepsair
- 29th April 2012 at 10:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40
Mark
Think you are right.
All to do with erosion of layers of paint.
The Dark Green camouflage survives as it was over painted with Middle Stone which has been eroded down. Areas of Dark Earth have been eroded down to bare metal.
So with the stenciling in black, this has eroded down to the white or as a shadow.
I know you would not paint white on white - just getting me head around it.
Ian - heard the same regarding the hatch. Looks like this is a Mod undertaken at the MU.
By: Bruce
- 29th April 2012 at 11:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here's a little scenario...
Aircraft comes into land; wheels down as we know.
Hits hidden rocks, wiping off the undercarriage.
Crash switch actuates, detonating the IFF, and causing the fragmentation damage to the rear fuselage
Explosion blows open the hatch, causing the damage to the extended latch plate as can be seen.
Explosion also destroys radio
Pilot climbs out, and removes radio in order to try and raise help. He dismantles battery to try to get appropriate power to the relevant circuits, but to no avail....
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 28th April 2012 at 11:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dobbins -have you seen the state of some of the British aircraft wrecks in this country after our fellow countrymen have finished molesting them !
Posts: 442
By: Dobbins - 28th April 2012 at 11:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
yes! but this particular one may prove to be extra poignant. Don't get me wrong, all wrecks have some kind of story attached but the thought of someone being alone in that hostile environment for god knows how long before probably succumbing to heat and dehydration is quite moving.
Posts: 8,957
By: TonyT - 28th April 2012 at 13:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You simply do not know, disarming it was a must and would be carried the world over, stuff like the sight dissapearing, well perhaps items seen as high value and easily removable by potential scavengers have simply been removed to place them in safe keeping.
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 28th April 2012 at 14:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dobbins -we don't know which aircraft it is yet so what might have happened is pure speculation.
Posts: 2,024
By: D1566 - 28th April 2012 at 14:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This was a rather poignant one, much closer to home, but it didn't stop the site being stripped. Not a scrap left these days. I just hope that more respect is shown in the P-40 case.
Posts: 917
By: brewerjerry - 28th April 2012 at 18:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi
the linked page attributes the lack of parts remaining to :-
'A visit to these today sites reveals little, they have now been made difficult to locate due to trail motor cycling in the area. This has churned up the peaty mountainside, resulting in a minor landslide near the Lysander, taking away the sparse evidence of these tragic accidents.'
Not due to souviner hunters.
cheers
Jerry
Posts: 282
By: shepsair - 28th April 2012 at 20:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40
OK, an archaeology question of sorts. Would be interesting to know general thoughts on this as it has not really been discussed.
The writing on the hatch.
It seems to say
COWL BUTTON
TO BE LOCKED
SHUT BEFORE FLIGHT
Q - Was this applied in the factory - if so does not seems to be a clear stencil, more hand painted.
Q - Is it two separate phases 'Cowl button to be locked' and later 'shut before flight'.
Q - The writing seems to have been painted 'above/around' the grey modified latch plate.
so, if not factory
Q - was it applied at the MU when assembled when the modified hatch latch was fitted?
Q - if this was the case and it was painted over the roundel would it have been painted over before issue to 260Sqn. Also a note in white paint over white roundel so does not make it readable!
Trouble is it seems to have survived the best which seems to indicate it was not applied last though was applied with thick paint by brush?
Bit a quandary. No evidence on other P40's ever having this though not many show the modified hatch latch.
Bit of a head scratch!!!:confused::confused:
regards
Mark
Posts: 549
By: Lazy8 - 28th April 2012 at 21:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It may well have been applied last, although the lack of such an inscription in contemporary photographs is puzzling. What we might be looking at is not the painting itself, but simply those bits of original paint that took longer to wear off because they had an extra layer on top. To me, it looks a little to clear for that to be true, but it's certainly possible.
Posts: 442
By: Dobbins - 28th April 2012 at 21:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It looks like some notice retro painted over the roundel in the field. Maybe the hatch had been damaged and repaired? Either way, it makes this Kitty unique!
https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink#5734881541898711858
If you zoom in it looks like the dzus fastener has been left in the fuselage with the modified latch presumably breaking on impact.
Posts: 8,957
By: TonyT - 28th April 2012 at 22:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I wouldn't take none standard markings as anything to read into something, often if they have had a problem or no other stencils etc are available markings are just added in the style of the originator..
There is a 14 Sqn Jag at Cosford with No Hinges Fitted in ground equipment yellow and hand painted on the port door in quite big letters....simply because I had no stencils, the only brush I could fine was a bit big and yellow was the only paint I could find at the time that would stand out, when the Jag would go for a major the sheared hinges would have been renewed and the markings obliterated / overpainted, however it never got that far, so it has my localised Squadron stencil markings still on it, indeed it has a more proffessionally produced item now adjacent to mine.
Posts: 282
By: shepsair - 28th April 2012 at 22:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lazy8/Dobbins
Can't decide.
Believe the Modification to the hatch was undertaken post construction (seems unpainted) and probably at the MU in Egypt prior to issue to the squadron.
The hatch popping was probably due to the crash. Otherwise the pilot would have undone it himself and it would not have been forced open. The pilot would have done that to destroyed the IFF by all accounts.
Still not sure.
Tony T - so not factory. Would be MU or in the field?
Mark
Posts: 8,957
By: TonyT - 28th April 2012 at 22:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We would add stuff in the field, if we had mods come out that could be done on the squadron we would, any other stuff would get added as they went through 2nd line maintenance. Hinges on a jag were in the F4 fuselage tanks so would be done at MU level If i remember correctly, as you virtually had the strip it to get to it? The battery and radio appears out so he may have opened the hatch to see if he could get off a signal, however with her spine broken I agree it would have probably popped.
Posts: 2,004
By: ian_ - 29th April 2012 at 00:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I believe there was a problem with radio hatch locks on P40s. Reading accident reports at the PRO, several UK crashes were attributed to the hatch breaking free and damaging the tail. The extra lock may have been a fairly standard mod based on these findings. The stencilling does not look factory applied. The Curtiss stencilling I've seen is applied as a decal, rather than painted on.
Posts: 10,158
By: Peter - 29th April 2012 at 04:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A friend has asked that I post this..
Posts: 917
By: brewerjerry - 29th April 2012 at 05:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi
An option like any, but it seems to infer a knowledge of the crash conditions.....gear collapsing....... if so this aircraft could have been located at the time ?
cheers
Jerry
Posts: 2,024
By: D1566 - 29th April 2012 at 06:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I read that, but last time I went up there, about 12 or so years ago, there was no sign of motor cycling activities ... and no wreckage. Besides, motor cyclists are unlikely to have removed the engine from the Spitfire, which was there in living memory.
Posts: 743
By: DaveM2 - 29th April 2012 at 06:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not a P-40K
Dave
Posts: 10,029
By: Mark12 - 29th April 2012 at 08:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The stencilled instructions on the hatch were painted in black.
The white of the roundel has eroded to reveal the blue disc and the black of the stencil has eroded to reveal the formerly protected white.
You do not paint white stencils on the white of the roundels.
Mark12
Posts: 282
By: shepsair - 29th April 2012 at 10:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
P40
Mark
Think you are right.
All to do with erosion of layers of paint.
The Dark Green camouflage survives as it was over painted with Middle Stone which has been eroded down. Areas of Dark Earth have been eroded down to bare metal.
So with the stenciling in black, this has eroded down to the white or as a shadow.
I know you would not paint white on white - just getting me head around it.
Ian - heard the same regarding the hatch. Looks like this is a Mod undertaken at the MU.
regards
Mark
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 29th April 2012 at 11:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here's a little scenario...
Aircraft comes into land; wheels down as we know.
Hits hidden rocks, wiping off the undercarriage.
Crash switch actuates, detonating the IFF, and causing the fragmentation damage to the rear fuselage
Explosion blows open the hatch, causing the damage to the extended latch plate as can be seen.
Explosion also destroys radio
Pilot climbs out, and removes radio in order to try and raise help. He dismantles battery to try to get appropriate power to the relevant circuits, but to no avail....
Thoughts?