By: pat1968
- 2nd May 2012 at 23:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This was not shot at the same time and there is considerably more damage to the aircraft than the first video. Plexi glass smashed, armoured glass looks like a rock has been smashed against it. I fear Andy is right if it stays where it is for too much longer there will be nothing left. I have another question who from RAFM/AHB is going to actually recover it? Or is the intention to have the Egyptian military 'take it apart' and send it to the UK?
By: Bruce
- 2nd May 2012 at 23:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It states 2012 -03 so it is within a few days of the other videos. I suspect the damage was done at the time the Egyptian military visited to remove the ammunition. The other videos show people clambering all over the canopy; that plexi would have been so brittle, it would have taken little to break it.
By: teejaymac
- 2nd May 2012 at 23:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gents,
Myself and another researcher here in Canada can nearly confirm that this is F/Sgt. Dennis C. Copping's (RAFVR) aircraft with the the airframe serial no. unknown as of yet. It did crash with in a "wheels down" landing as the gear was locked down. We can't disclose the events on that day or any other information until RAF/MOD or the RAFM release information from there investigation with respects to the pilot's demise and accident that resulted in this No. 260 Kittyhawk being where it is.
Perhaps someone with access to No. 260's ORB can review the entries for June 1942 and help ID the serial number of the airframe.
Just wanted to clear the air a bit.
L.W.
CAHS - Toronto
If it was Flt Sgt Coppings It is obvious that the A/C serial will be ET574 as I pointed out some days ago in a post on Hyperscale which was repeated on here and 12 O'Clock High .
No problem with the serial of the A/C that Flt Sgt Coppings was flying when he disappeared The problem is ,is this the A/C ?
By: Dobbins
- 3rd May 2012 at 00:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I suspect the damage was done at the time the Egyptian military visited to remove the ammunition. The other videos show people clambering all over the canopy; that plexi would have been so brittle, it would have taken little to break it.
Every panel except the front one? Vandalism more like.
By: Shay
- 3rd May 2012 at 00:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've never seen a thread with such Highs and Lows.
This kittyhawk is quickly losing it's Time capsule charm. What a shame people feel it's OK destroy something that clearly has importance, and for what? A couple knobs and a gas cap? Ridiculous. Looks like they used the supercharger compressor shaft to beat the plexi as it now lies on the floor of the cockpit.
Am I correct in seeing that the dataplate with the serial no. has been removed? Well atleast someone in the world knows the true identity of the aircraft. Even if they don't know they know it. :mad: Utterly asinine.
Can anyone tell me, are Kittyhawk engine panels marked in the same manner as Hurricanes (maybe Spits too)? I once saw a recovered Hurricane where the Ser No. was stenciled to the undeside of the engine cowl panels, I assume to prevent mix up with other aircraft if there were fit problems from one kite to the next. Possibly carried out on other RAF types?
I fear the wheels of bureaucracy and politics will not turn fast enough for this Kittyhawk.
By: jeepman
- 3rd May 2012 at 00:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sadly such an outcome was probably inevitable from the minute it was discovered. It was perhaps too optimistic of us all to expect that it could be saved in the state that it was first discovered and initially photographed.
The lengthy debate about whether it was real, or a model or photoshopped can't have helped either in terms of the speed or decisiveness of a response from the appropriate UK authorities.
I guess though that we could never expect an immediate rescue response - such things take time to organise and resource, particularly as the RAFM can no longer rely on the RAF to assist though a convenient desert training exercise or the like.
I hope it is saved and displayed as a sobering reminder of the desert campaign, perhaps adjacent to the existing "complete" P40, and that an attempt is made to find the last resting place of the pilot, should it be confirmed that he is still missing in action.
The LRDG Chev WA truck displayed unrestored at Lambeth shows how powerful such a presentation can be/
By: DC Page
- 3rd May 2012 at 03:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gentlemen,
The Kittyhawk has been used for target practice in recent days. The aircraft has numerous new bullet holes, the front quarter window glass has been shot out, the remaining plexi panels in the sliding canopy have probably been smashed or shot out, the armored front windscreen has been tested, showing impacts from at least 8 rounds at first glance, and the list goes on!
But don’t worry, the aircraft is on government property so nothing bad can happen to it. It’s being looked after by their top men. “We’re from the Government, and we're here to help!”
By: Dan Jones
- 3rd May 2012 at 04:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Is there any truth to the rumour that the a/c is to go to the RAF Museum? Or is that just wishful thinking on our part? The airplane is rapidly, rapidly being destroyed. I just can't believe the tragedy...
By: Bruce
- 3rd May 2012 at 07:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Guys, guys - I understand now that the video is from more recently than the others.
However, while we wouldnt consider doing such things, much of the youth in our own countries certainly would. As I said before, this aircraft means nothing at all to the locals!
There is a parallel with the FHC FW190 also found in time capsule condition back in the early 90's. At one point, it lost one aileron, the whole tail section, and much of the cockpit interior. The intact canopy was also broken. Whilst the tail was quickly found, it took ten years to track down the rest of the missing parts, which eventually turned up in a cellar in Germany!
Sadly, we cant place a cordon around the P40, and it is inevitable that some damage will be done. As I said before, lets hope it can be rescued before it gets too bad.
By: H87A-2
- 3rd May 2012 at 09:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gents,
Myself and another researcher here in Canada can nearly confirm that this is F/Sgt. Dennis C. Copping's (RAFVR) aircraft with the the airframe serial no. unknown as of yet. It did crash with in a "wheels down" landing as the gear was locked down. We can't disclose the events on that day or any other information until RAF/MOD or the RAFM release information from there investigation with respects to the pilot's demise and accident that resulted in this No. 260 Kittyhawk being where it is.
Perhaps someone with access to No. 260's ORB can review the entries for June 1942 and help ID the serial number of the airframe.
Just wanted to clear the air a bit.
L.W.
CAHS - Toronto
Washlee
Its great you can almost confirm that this is Copping's aircraft, I can also help you out and almost confirm that it’s a P-40E-1CU modified at 107MU with the baggage hatch door lock. Bit of a throw away statement for both of us and really not much help. The belief is there is a very strong possibility that this is Copping's aircraft but there are still a number of Kittyhawk's missing that were never seen to go down, they just ceased to exist along with their pilots, so must be discounted. The only way to discount them is get a serial number.
Why must these aircraft be discounted?, well they were either from 260SQDN or ex 260SQDN aircraft....so once again back to that serial number.
What happened on that day is actually fairly well know as well, Copping took off as part of a small flight of at least two aircraft, possibly a third (third is unknown and can't be confirmed, in either 260ORB or 53RSU records), to ferry back damaged aircraft back to LG100 (home of 53RSU) (serial number of both aircraft known, and if there was a third it is also known).
It’s known that the pilot of the second aircraft saw him set the wrong course and actually stayed with him for a while, and saw things that the Ground crew and Aircrew would not have seen (and wrote them down). As for the First hand eye witness, I'll assume that the person is an LRDG member as these were about the only people who would have been this far out in the desert (and even a bit far for them). If a ground unit, then why is Copping still missing? I believe that what you have is someone that maybe saw the aircraft take off (certainly a probability if a Pilot of 260SQDN or Ground crew, or the other Units which where there at the time (don’t need to tell you which ones because you have researched this so already know), maybe even heard the story of what happened (but that would make it second hand info only), but I’m afraid none of that that makes a firsthand eye witness (unless LRDG, then please shake the man’s hand for me, buy him a beer and let me know the cost).
Statements such as you have made are not helpful in any form, the only way we can CONFIRM this is Copping's Aircraft is to get that serial number, everything else is speculation only until then. Now by the look of things all the normal ways to id the aircraft are missing, which leaves Factory records. So I hope you have a set handy when the number is obtained.
Posts: 258
By: pat1968 - 2nd May 2012 at 23:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This was not shot at the same time and there is considerably more damage to the aircraft than the first video. Plexi glass smashed, armoured glass looks like a rock has been smashed against it. I fear Andy is right if it stays where it is for too much longer there will be nothing left. I have another question who from RAFM/AHB is going to actually recover it? Or is the intention to have the Egyptian military 'take it apart' and send it to the UK?
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 2nd May 2012 at 23:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It states 2012 -03 so it is within a few days of the other videos. I suspect the damage was done at the time the Egyptian military visited to remove the ammunition. The other videos show people clambering all over the canopy; that plexi would have been so brittle, it would have taken little to break it.
Bruce
Posts: 442
By: Dobbins - 2nd May 2012 at 23:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
well the cowling didn't just detach itself....
Posts: 258
By: pat1968 - 2nd May 2012 at 23:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nor did the port aileron which is now sitting on the ground under the wing!
Posts: 10
By: teejaymac - 2nd May 2012 at 23:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If it was Flt Sgt Coppings It is obvious that the A/C serial will be ET574 as I pointed out some days ago in a post on Hyperscale which was repeated on here and 12 O'Clock High .
No problem with the serial of the A/C that Flt Sgt Coppings was flying when he disappeared The problem is ,is this the A/C ?
Terry
Posts: 442
By: Dobbins - 3rd May 2012 at 00:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Every panel except the front one? Vandalism more like.
Posts: 10,158
By: Peter - 3rd May 2012 at 00:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wow... thats a shame though not a surprise...
Posts: 797
By: Snoopy7422 - 3rd May 2012 at 00:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Argh...
Tragic to see this gem getting wrecked. Anyone got a Chinook handy...?
Posts: 24
By: Shay - 3rd May 2012 at 00:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've never seen a thread with such Highs and Lows.
This kittyhawk is quickly losing it's Time capsule charm. What a shame people feel it's OK destroy something that clearly has importance, and for what? A couple knobs and a gas cap? Ridiculous. Looks like they used the supercharger compressor shaft to beat the plexi as it now lies on the floor of the cockpit.
Am I correct in seeing that the dataplate with the serial no. has been removed? Well atleast someone in the world knows the true identity of the aircraft. Even if they don't know they know it. :mad: Utterly asinine.
Can anyone tell me, are Kittyhawk engine panels marked in the same manner as Hurricanes (maybe Spits too)? I once saw a recovered Hurricane where the Ser No. was stenciled to the undeside of the engine cowl panels, I assume to prevent mix up with other aircraft if there were fit problems from one kite to the next. Possibly carried out on other RAF types?
I fear the wheels of bureaucracy and politics will not turn fast enough for this Kittyhawk.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Posts: 1,987
By: jeepman - 3rd May 2012 at 00:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sadly such an outcome was probably inevitable from the minute it was discovered. It was perhaps too optimistic of us all to expect that it could be saved in the state that it was first discovered and initially photographed.
The lengthy debate about whether it was real, or a model or photoshopped can't have helped either in terms of the speed or decisiveness of a response from the appropriate UK authorities.
I guess though that we could never expect an immediate rescue response - such things take time to organise and resource, particularly as the RAFM can no longer rely on the RAF to assist though a convenient desert training exercise or the like.
I hope it is saved and displayed as a sobering reminder of the desert campaign, perhaps adjacent to the existing "complete" P40, and that an attempt is made to find the last resting place of the pilot, should it be confirmed that he is still missing in action.
The LRDG Chev WA truck displayed unrestored at Lambeth shows how powerful such a presentation can be/
Posts: 10,158
By: Peter - 3rd May 2012 at 00:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I noticed that large gear inside the cockpit as well.. Shame really.. I fear for the short term for this airframe...
Posts: 832
By: ozjag - 3rd May 2012 at 01:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What has been unscrewed from that tube in the cockpit?
Posts: 550
By: JägerMarty - 3rd May 2012 at 01:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How frustrating, send the SAS and a chinook in FFS!
Posts: 313
By: DC Page - 3rd May 2012 at 03:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gentlemen,
The Kittyhawk has been used for target practice in recent days. The aircraft has numerous new bullet holes, the front quarter window glass has been shot out, the remaining plexi panels in the sliding canopy have probably been smashed or shot out, the armored front windscreen has been tested, showing impacts from at least 8 rounds at first glance, and the list goes on!
But don’t worry, the aircraft is on government property so nothing bad can happen to it. It’s being looked after by their top men. “We’re from the Government, and we're here to help!”
Savages.
Posts: 18
By: Dan Jones - 3rd May 2012 at 04:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Is there any truth to the rumour that the a/c is to go to the RAF Museum? Or is that just wishful thinking on our part? The airplane is rapidly, rapidly being destroyed. I just can't believe the tragedy...
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 3rd May 2012 at 07:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Guys, guys - I understand now that the video is from more recently than the others.
However, while we wouldnt consider doing such things, much of the youth in our own countries certainly would. As I said before, this aircraft means nothing at all to the locals!
There is a parallel with the FHC FW190 also found in time capsule condition back in the early 90's. At one point, it lost one aileron, the whole tail section, and much of the cockpit interior. The intact canopy was also broken. Whilst the tail was quickly found, it took ten years to track down the rest of the missing parts, which eventually turned up in a cellar in Germany!
Sadly, we cant place a cordon around the P40, and it is inevitable that some damage will be done. As I said before, lets hope it can be rescued before it gets too bad.
Bruce
Posts: 5,831
By: avion ancien - 3rd May 2012 at 07:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Except, perhaps, scrap metal?
Posts: 31
By: H87A-2 - 3rd May 2012 at 09:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Washlee
Its great you can almost confirm that this is Copping's aircraft, I can also help you out and almost confirm that it’s a P-40E-1CU modified at 107MU with the baggage hatch door lock. Bit of a throw away statement for both of us and really not much help. The belief is there is a very strong possibility that this is Copping's aircraft but there are still a number of Kittyhawk's missing that were never seen to go down, they just ceased to exist along with their pilots, so must be discounted. The only way to discount them is get a serial number.
Why must these aircraft be discounted?, well they were either from 260SQDN or ex 260SQDN aircraft....so once again back to that serial number.
What happened on that day is actually fairly well know as well, Copping took off as part of a small flight of at least two aircraft, possibly a third (third is unknown and can't be confirmed, in either 260ORB or 53RSU records), to ferry back damaged aircraft back to LG100 (home of 53RSU) (serial number of both aircraft known, and if there was a third it is also known).
It’s known that the pilot of the second aircraft saw him set the wrong course and actually stayed with him for a while, and saw things that the Ground crew and Aircrew would not have seen (and wrote them down). As for the First hand eye witness, I'll assume that the person is an LRDG member as these were about the only people who would have been this far out in the desert (and even a bit far for them). If a ground unit, then why is Copping still missing? I believe that what you have is someone that maybe saw the aircraft take off (certainly a probability if a Pilot of 260SQDN or Ground crew, or the other Units which where there at the time (don’t need to tell you which ones because you have researched this so already know), maybe even heard the story of what happened (but that would make it second hand info only), but I’m afraid none of that that makes a firsthand eye witness (unless LRDG, then please shake the man’s hand for me, buy him a beer and let me know the cost).
Statements such as you have made are not helpful in any form, the only way we can CONFIRM this is Copping's Aircraft is to get that serial number, everything else is speculation only until then. Now by the look of things all the normal ways to id the aircraft are missing, which leaves Factory records. So I hope you have a set handy when the number is obtained.
Regards
Buz
Posts: 9
By: RearGunner - 3rd May 2012 at 09:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Vandalised & ripped apart by the locals = the same treatment it would recieve returning it to airworthy condition.
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 3rd May 2012 at 09:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not really sure on that! -depends who does the rebuild and what the remit is!
As for SAS and Chinook -they have been rather busy further east to have time to bother with an old wreck out in the desert!