By: David Burke
- 10th April 2013 at 00:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The ARIDO group found the human remains on the 16th of June . The aircraft was recovered later in June . As for the chances of finding the remains - the luck of otherwise is neither here nor there - the remains are clearly there and deserve investigation.
By: jack windsor
- 14th April 2013 at 11:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No apology for bumping this thread.Because we don,t want them to think we,ve forgotten about it.As from a previous post April 9th was given as a possible further information date...is there anything?,
regards
jack...
New
By: Anonymous
- 14th April 2013 at 11:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Jack
I think it is fair to say that the position is far from clear, with conflicting information on what has or has happened coming from different sources.
By: dko
- 14th April 2013 at 13:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm still patiently waiting ......... but I think it will not be out anything new!
After 70 years + 1 year "of straw and words" I think it's time to act and do new research to bring Dennis back home.
By: l.garey
- 15th April 2013 at 06:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Jack Windsor:
As I said earlier, the MOD should contact me AFTER 9 April. We both tried to phone each other last week but failed to connect. I hope today then, but cannot promise anything. I shall keep you posted.
By: l.garey
- 17th April 2013 at 10:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was able to speak to someone at the MOD yesterday, and am even more confused than ever now. The story is that after the Defence Attaché in Cairo sent me an email to say that the bones had been tested and that the Egyptian authorities had found no extractable DNA, and the DA thus declared the "case closed", I contacted the MOD, as the evidence still was that the bones found 8 km from the crash site had been reburied there and never tested. Finally yesterday I spoke to the MOD, and my contact was as confused and concerned as I, for the story now is that some bones WERE indeed tested in Egypt and found unsuitable, but that they were perhaps NOT the bones found by the Italian ARIDO team. I have no idea where these bones came from and nor apparently does the Ministry! I shall keep working on this complete mystery. Something that seems so simple to resolve is turning out to be VERY complicated.
New
By: Anonymous
- 17th April 2013 at 16:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Has there been any response, yet, from the MOD as regards to this extraordinary turn of events?
So, the human bones found by the Italians that were associated with a piece of parachute remain in the desert. Untested.
Meanwhile, from somewhere else another set of bones are found. Presumably, somehow or other, these 'new' bones have been associated as having a possible link to the P40. They have been tested, but found to be unsuitable for DNA extraction.
And the Defence Attache, Cairo, is simply saying 'Case Closed' and refusing to offer further information or answer questions - merely referring such questions "to London". But when the questions are referred "to London" they don't know anything and are confused!
At the same time, the family remain kept in the dark - having no knowledge of this additional set of remains.
By: l.garey
- 17th April 2013 at 17:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, Andy, I'm not making it up! It reminds me of some of the stories in your book "Finding the Few". We seem to be going back several decades.
As to your questions: no further response from the MOD except to thank me for my conversation yesterday, which seems to have clarified some details for them.
The "Italian" bones: as far as I know from what they have said (the Italians) yes, they are still left where found, untested, but I can't prove that of course.
Have the "new" bones been associated with the P-40? I have no idea, nor does the MOD, I was told. I only learned about them yesterday. I don't even know who found them, nor what they actually are.
Re the DA and "London" (or is it Innsworth?): that's right.
The family seem to be the last people to be informed of anything, and that is very regrettable.
New
By: Anonymous
- 17th April 2013 at 21:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thank you, Laurence.
One must assume that the 'new' bones must have had some suggestion of association with the P40. If not, then one cannot imagine there would have been any reason to randomly test a random set of bones!! Although in this case, anything seems possible. Somehow, these bones seem to have got into the hands of the Defence Attache (presumably?) for them to have been passed to the Egyptian authorities for testing.
Since there has been a continuing total clamp-down on any information related to the recovery of the P40 to El Alamein by an RAF Museum team (apparently led by Tim Manna) we are not aware if the bones recently tested might have been discovered during the P40 recovery. The logical place for his body to have been might well be close to the wreck, especially as his parachute canopy was strewn round and about and possibly indicated a shelter construction.
By: jack windsor
- 18th April 2013 at 17:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I appreciate this is a very serious matter,but with he lack of communication between the Defence attaché and the MOD,i hope the embassy don,t run out of toilet rolls and ask him to order some urgently,as they would at least be knee deep in the brown stuff.
Perhaps a rank permotion might tempt him off his a..e.
But seriously this is now beyond a joke...by digging himself into a hole,and by carrying on digging the D.attache has shown a lack of compassion,and respect to the family,and also to a fellow serviceman,
Dennis Copping deserves to be brought home now,he,s waited long enough,has as his family..
can we not all e-mail the MOD? if 200 odd e-mails hit them it might cause someone to think and do something.
By: dko
- 25th April 2013 at 14:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
depressing situation ........... what we expect ??
New
By: Anonymous
- 25th April 2013 at 17:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Part of the problem, here, is getting to the truth.
At present we are in a vacuum with no information coming out. What has come out thus far has been conflicting, contradictory, misleading, confused, untruthful and muddled in equal measure. A certain amount may have been lost in translation, or become muddled in the telling. But it also clear that somebody along the way has been untruthful or disingenuous and we don't know who that is, or why. Meanwhile, the family are left in the dark.
By: Anonymous
- 8th May 2013 at 23:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Perhaps the most telling words are these:
"A spokesman for the MoD said: 'The Egyptian medical research authorities have tested some bones and have come back and said it is not possible for a DNA sample to be extracted from them."
My underlining.
As I understand the situation it is not even known if the bones tested were those found by the Italian team - hence, perhaps, the rather ambiguous quote from the MOD. Further, the Italian team have suggested that if any bones have been tested then they are not those they found because those bones are still in the desert. Apparently.
Meanwhile, nobody can evidently explain where these 'new' bones came from, who tested them, or where they are now. The Defence Attache, Cairo, has apparently blanked any queries on the matter and merely stated "Case closed" and refers questions back to London. However, when questions are asked in London...they know nothing. All along, the family remain in the dark about the truth.
A rather incandescent e-mail has just been sent to my MP. Is it too much for the family to expect clear, truthful and unambiguous answers? Or is it acceptable to treat them in this manner and to care so little about Flt Sgt Dennis Copping?
Shameful is not the word to adequately sum it up, but I struggle to find any other.
By: ozjag
- 9th May 2013 at 01:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Has anyone gone directly to the source and actually called Tim Manna? Surely he would be able to answer some basic questions.
My personal view is still that given the cut harness straps Dennis never exited the cockpit by himself.
By: l.garey
- 9th May 2013 at 06:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was a bit surprised to read my quotes in the Daily Mail piece. True, I find the story about the bones being unusable hard to believe but 60 million year old dinosaurs in Oman? Where did that come from? Not me. They died out 65 million years ago, and not in Oman at that.
They are cheeky to put quotation marks, as if they were my words.
And I don't think the aircraft is in a "crater".
New
By: Anonymous
- 9th May 2013 at 08:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Laurence
Just goes to show how often the press do get 'detail' wrong....!! On the plus side, I suppose, the general content of the piece pretty much sums up the position accurately - notwithstanding the dinosaurs in Oman, the 'crater' (typo, I suspect!) and your attributed quotes, of course.
Ozjag
Not entirely sure if Tim Manna would be in a position to answer any of the questions relative to the remains, since I gather that he was only involved in the recovery of the P40 and would not have been involved (as far as we know) with any of the remains. And, at this stage of course, we are still not allowed to actually talk about the P40 itself with that thread still removed from this forum and in 'quarantine'.
By: Mark12
- 9th May 2013 at 08:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that it would be advantageous to determine if the the 'desert adventurers' have actually given the precise GPS details of the location of said bones to the British authorities.
My understanding is that they have not.
The cut strap of the harness, the missing clock, the missing Very cartridges, the fact that the Very pistol was found buried in sand at the bottom of the cockpit, tell a story here.
Mark
New
By: Anonymous
- 9th May 2013 at 09:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mark
Indeed, it would be very helpful to know that and a number of closely involved people have been trying to get to the truth of the matter for quite some while. However, if the GPS co-ordinates of the said bones have not been given to the British authorities (and it seems more than likely they have not) then it begs the question; how have the bones been recovered to determine that DNA testing is impossible? In fact, the British authorities seem unclear as to where the bones that have been tested actually came from. It seems to me that this is a pretty fundamental piece of information that the British authorities ought to be able to establish for the family - but they seem unable to do or else are unwilling to. At the present, we have a situation where somebody may or may not have recovered some bones from the desert which may or may not be those found by the Italians. If they are, then how did they find them and who recovered them? If they are not, then where on earth have they come from? The family want to know, and that is not unreasonable.
Only one thing is clear; there has been a great deal of obfuscation and mendacious behaviour in respect of the possible remains of Flt Sgt Copping. Why? It should be a simple thing to (a) get at the facts, and, (b) to tell them truthfully and unambiguously. And I am afraid we have been faced with lies and ambiguity - starting with the first scenario when the family were told by the MOD that the remains were not of Dennis but were at least 400 years old. It was only because some of us realised that there was something wrong with that statement that it was challenged and the MOD were forced to admit that this was incorrect; that the remains had not been recovered and thus there was no way to know their age!
New
By: Anonymous
- 9th May 2013 at 09:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mark
Indeed, it would be very helpful to know that and a number of closely involved people have been trying to get to the truth of the matter for quite some while. However, if the GPS co-ordinates of the said bones have not been given to the British authorities (and it seems more than likely they have not) then it begs the question; how have the bones been recovered to determine that DNA testing is impossible? In fact, the British authorities seem unclear as to where the bones that have been tested actually came from. It seems to me that this is a pretty fundamental piece of information that the British authorities ought to be able to establish for the family - but they seem unable to do or else are unwilling to. At the present, we have a situation where somebody may or may not have recovered some bones from the desert which may or may not be those found by the Italians. If they are, then how did they find them and who recovered them? If they are not, then where on earth have they come from? The family want to know, and that is not unreasonable.
Only one thing is clear; there has been a great deal of obfuscation and mendacious behaviour in respect of the possible remains of Flt Sgt Copping. Why? It should be a simple thing to (a) get at the facts, and, (b) to tell them truthfully and unambiguously. And I am afraid we have been faced with lies and ambiguity - starting with the first scenario when the family were told by the MOD that the remains were not of Dennis but were at least 400 years old. It was only because some of us realised that there was something wrong with that statement that it was challenged and the MOD were forced to admit that this was incorrect; that the remains had not been recovered and thus there was no way to know their age!
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 10th April 2013 at 00:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The ARIDO group found the human remains on the 16th of June . The aircraft was recovered later in June . As for the chances of finding the remains - the luck of otherwise is neither here nor there - the remains are clearly there and deserve investigation.
Posts: 923
By: jack windsor - 14th April 2013 at 11:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No apology for bumping this thread.Because we don,t want them to think we,ve forgotten about it.As from a previous post April 9th was given as a possible further information date...is there anything?,
regards
jack...
By: Anonymous - 14th April 2013 at 11:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Jack
I think it is fair to say that the position is far from clear, with conflicting information on what has or has happened coming from different sources.
Posts: 93
By: dko - 14th April 2013 at 13:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm still patiently waiting ......... but I think it will not be out anything new!
After 70 years + 1 year "of straw and words" I think it's time to act and do new research to bring Dennis back home.
Posts: 2,115
By: l.garey - 15th April 2013 at 06:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Jack Windsor:
As I said earlier, the MOD should contact me AFTER 9 April. We both tried to phone each other last week but failed to connect. I hope today then, but cannot promise anything. I shall keep you posted.
Posts: 2,115
By: l.garey - 17th April 2013 at 10:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was able to speak to someone at the MOD yesterday, and am even more confused than ever now. The story is that after the Defence Attaché in Cairo sent me an email to say that the bones had been tested and that the Egyptian authorities had found no extractable DNA, and the DA thus declared the "case closed", I contacted the MOD, as the evidence still was that the bones found 8 km from the crash site had been reburied there and never tested. Finally yesterday I spoke to the MOD, and my contact was as confused and concerned as I, for the story now is that some bones WERE indeed tested in Egypt and found unsuitable, but that they were perhaps NOT the bones found by the Italian ARIDO team. I have no idea where these bones came from and nor apparently does the Ministry! I shall keep working on this complete mystery. Something that seems so simple to resolve is turning out to be VERY complicated.
By: Anonymous - 17th April 2013 at 16:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Has there been any response, yet, from the MOD as regards to this extraordinary turn of events?
So, the human bones found by the Italians that were associated with a piece of parachute remain in the desert. Untested.
Meanwhile, from somewhere else another set of bones are found. Presumably, somehow or other, these 'new' bones have been associated as having a possible link to the P40. They have been tested, but found to be unsuitable for DNA extraction.
And the Defence Attache, Cairo, is simply saying 'Case Closed' and refusing to offer further information or answer questions - merely referring such questions "to London". But when the questions are referred "to London" they don't know anything and are confused!
At the same time, the family remain kept in the dark - having no knowledge of this additional set of remains.
You couldn't make it up.
Posts: 2,115
By: l.garey - 17th April 2013 at 17:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, Andy, I'm not making it up! It reminds me of some of the stories in your book "Finding the Few". We seem to be going back several decades.
As to your questions: no further response from the MOD except to thank me for my conversation yesterday, which seems to have clarified some details for them.
The "Italian" bones: as far as I know from what they have said (the Italians) yes, they are still left where found, untested, but I can't prove that of course.
Have the "new" bones been associated with the P-40? I have no idea, nor does the MOD, I was told. I only learned about them yesterday. I don't even know who found them, nor what they actually are.
Re the DA and "London" (or is it Innsworth?): that's right.
The family seem to be the last people to be informed of anything, and that is very regrettable.
By: Anonymous - 17th April 2013 at 21:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thank you, Laurence.
One must assume that the 'new' bones must have had some suggestion of association with the P40. If not, then one cannot imagine there would have been any reason to randomly test a random set of bones!! Although in this case, anything seems possible. Somehow, these bones seem to have got into the hands of the Defence Attache (presumably?) for them to have been passed to the Egyptian authorities for testing.
Since there has been a continuing total clamp-down on any information related to the recovery of the P40 to El Alamein by an RAF Museum team (apparently led by Tim Manna) we are not aware if the bones recently tested might have been discovered during the P40 recovery. The logical place for his body to have been might well be close to the wreck, especially as his parachute canopy was strewn round and about and possibly indicated a shelter construction.
Posts: 923
By: jack windsor - 18th April 2013 at 17:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I appreciate this is a very serious matter,but with he lack of communication between the Defence attaché and the MOD,i hope the embassy don,t run out of toilet rolls and ask him to order some urgently,as they would at least be knee deep in the brown stuff.
Perhaps a rank permotion might tempt him off his a..e.
But seriously this is now beyond a joke...by digging himself into a hole,and by carrying on digging the D.attache has shown a lack of compassion,and respect to the family,and also to a fellow serviceman,
Dennis Copping deserves to be brought home now,he,s waited long enough,has as his family..
can we not all e-mail the MOD? if 200 odd e-mails hit them it might cause someone to think and do something.
regards
jack...
Posts: 93
By: dko - 25th April 2013 at 14:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
depressing situation ........... what we expect ??
By: Anonymous - 25th April 2013 at 17:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Part of the problem, here, is getting to the truth.
At present we are in a vacuum with no information coming out. What has come out thus far has been conflicting, contradictory, misleading, confused, untruthful and muddled in equal measure. A certain amount may have been lost in translation, or become muddled in the telling. But it also clear that somebody along the way has been untruthful or disingenuous and we don't know who that is, or why. Meanwhile, the family are left in the dark.
Posts: 1,311
By: Dr Strangelove - 8th May 2013 at 22:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Our favourite tabloid has updated its article-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2321443/Mystery-WWII-airman-went-missing-desert-Family-devastated-told-bones-near-downed-craft-tested-DNA.html
By: Anonymous - 8th May 2013 at 23:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Perhaps the most telling words are these:
"A spokesman for the MoD said: 'The Egyptian medical research authorities have tested some bones and have come back and said it is not possible for a DNA sample to be extracted from them."
My underlining.
As I understand the situation it is not even known if the bones tested were those found by the Italian team - hence, perhaps, the rather ambiguous quote from the MOD. Further, the Italian team have suggested that if any bones have been tested then they are not those they found because those bones are still in the desert. Apparently.
Meanwhile, nobody can evidently explain where these 'new' bones came from, who tested them, or where they are now. The Defence Attache, Cairo, has apparently blanked any queries on the matter and merely stated "Case closed" and refers questions back to London. However, when questions are asked in London...they know nothing. All along, the family remain in the dark about the truth.
A rather incandescent e-mail has just been sent to my MP. Is it too much for the family to expect clear, truthful and unambiguous answers? Or is it acceptable to treat them in this manner and to care so little about Flt Sgt Dennis Copping?
Shameful is not the word to adequately sum it up, but I struggle to find any other.
Posts: 832
By: ozjag - 9th May 2013 at 01:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Has anyone gone directly to the source and actually called Tim Manna? Surely he would be able to answer some basic questions.
My personal view is still that given the cut harness straps Dennis never exited the cockpit by himself.
Cheers Paul
Posts: 2,115
By: l.garey - 9th May 2013 at 06:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was a bit surprised to read my quotes in the Daily Mail piece. True, I find the story about the bones being unusable hard to believe but 60 million year old dinosaurs in Oman? Where did that come from? Not me. They died out 65 million years ago, and not in Oman at that.
They are cheeky to put quotation marks, as if they were my words.
And I don't think the aircraft is in a "crater".
By: Anonymous - 9th May 2013 at 08:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Laurence
Just goes to show how often the press do get 'detail' wrong....!! On the plus side, I suppose, the general content of the piece pretty much sums up the position accurately - notwithstanding the dinosaurs in Oman, the 'crater' (typo, I suspect!) and your attributed quotes, of course.
Ozjag
Not entirely sure if Tim Manna would be in a position to answer any of the questions relative to the remains, since I gather that he was only involved in the recovery of the P40 and would not have been involved (as far as we know) with any of the remains. And, at this stage of course, we are still not allowed to actually talk about the P40 itself with that thread still removed from this forum and in 'quarantine'.
Posts: 10,029
By: Mark12 - 9th May 2013 at 08:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that it would be advantageous to determine if the the 'desert adventurers' have actually given the precise GPS details of the location of said bones to the British authorities.
My understanding is that they have not.
The cut strap of the harness, the missing clock, the missing Very cartridges, the fact that the Very pistol was found buried in sand at the bottom of the cockpit, tell a story here.
Mark
By: Anonymous - 9th May 2013 at 09:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mark
Indeed, it would be very helpful to know that and a number of closely involved people have been trying to get to the truth of the matter for quite some while. However, if the GPS co-ordinates of the said bones have not been given to the British authorities (and it seems more than likely they have not) then it begs the question; how have the bones been recovered to determine that DNA testing is impossible? In fact, the British authorities seem unclear as to where the bones that have been tested actually came from. It seems to me that this is a pretty fundamental piece of information that the British authorities ought to be able to establish for the family - but they seem unable to do or else are unwilling to. At the present, we have a situation where somebody may or may not have recovered some bones from the desert which may or may not be those found by the Italians. If they are, then how did they find them and who recovered them? If they are not, then where on earth have they come from? The family want to know, and that is not unreasonable.
Only one thing is clear; there has been a great deal of obfuscation and mendacious behaviour in respect of the possible remains of Flt Sgt Copping. Why? It should be a simple thing to (a) get at the facts, and, (b) to tell them truthfully and unambiguously. And I am afraid we have been faced with lies and ambiguity - starting with the first scenario when the family were told by the MOD that the remains were not of Dennis but were at least 400 years old. It was only because some of us realised that there was something wrong with that statement that it was challenged and the MOD were forced to admit that this was incorrect; that the remains had not been recovered and thus there was no way to know their age!
By: Anonymous - 9th May 2013 at 09:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mark
Indeed, it would be very helpful to know that and a number of closely involved people have been trying to get to the truth of the matter for quite some while. However, if the GPS co-ordinates of the said bones have not been given to the British authorities (and it seems more than likely they have not) then it begs the question; how have the bones been recovered to determine that DNA testing is impossible? In fact, the British authorities seem unclear as to where the bones that have been tested actually came from. It seems to me that this is a pretty fundamental piece of information that the British authorities ought to be able to establish for the family - but they seem unable to do or else are unwilling to. At the present, we have a situation where somebody may or may not have recovered some bones from the desert which may or may not be those found by the Italians. If they are, then how did they find them and who recovered them? If they are not, then where on earth have they come from? The family want to know, and that is not unreasonable.
Only one thing is clear; there has been a great deal of obfuscation and mendacious behaviour in respect of the possible remains of Flt Sgt Copping. Why? It should be a simple thing to (a) get at the facts, and, (b) to tell them truthfully and unambiguously. And I am afraid we have been faced with lies and ambiguity - starting with the first scenario when the family were told by the MOD that the remains were not of Dennis but were at least 400 years old. It was only because some of us realised that there was something wrong with that statement that it was challenged and the MOD were forced to admit that this was incorrect; that the remains had not been recovered and thus there was no way to know their age!