Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

By: Anonymous - 5th October 2013 at 22:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Bruce

The MOD has a general policy of non-disturbance, and is certainly never pro-active in the recovery of remains. It has neither the mandate, budget nor the organisation with which to deal with such situations.

In the case of the Sebago Lake Corsairs, a third party was looking to recover the aircraft and remains but the British MOD intervened with the State of Maine and ensured through legal action that it could not happen. I was party to those legal proceedings through Affidavits filed from the UK to the US courts and thus have some considerable 'insider' knowledge of that case.

In the case of the P40 in the desert, remains were certainly found that may or not be related to Flt Sgt Copping and from the outset the MOD/British Embassy have been 'involved' (albeit rather shambolically) in the proposed recovery, identification and burial of those remains. With the possibility that the human remains found not too far distant from the P40 could be those of Dennis Copping they could not have been seen to have just left them where they were and the MOD could not just ignore the matter - especially given the interest of the family in this case. Remains that are potentially accessible and have been seen, moved, photographed and located are, I would suggest, considerably different from possible remains within a Corsair (only one has been located) in very deep water. That is not to say that I don't believe those remains shouldn't be recovered - on the contrary. However, and despite popular belief, the Corsairs have never been dived as only ROV investigation has been conducted. In all probability, remains are contained within that wreck. But there is no certainty of this. In the case of the P40, though, we know there to have been monumental confusion and obfuscation over the truth of what has happened since that discovery. However, the MOD has a duty to deal with tangible remains (such as those found near the P40) on a reactive basis - however badly they may have done so in this instance. In the case of the Corsair(s) there are no known extant remains and the recovery of the aircraft could be quite tricky.

If remains of possible British service personnel are located that are accessible, are not secure and have potential for disturbance then the British government has a duty to deal with such remains, identify them, notify NOK and turn those remains over to the CWGC for burial and commemoration. This situation, potentially, is what we have with the P40 case. It is not currently the situation with the Corsair(s).

By: Anonymous - 6th October 2013 at 12:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

No.

The MOD do not have a policy of pro-actively seeking out remains as I pointed out in the previous post(s). On the contrary, in fact.

Here:

"The MOD has a general policy of non-disturbance, and is certainly never pro-active in the recovery of remains. It has neither the mandate, budget nor the organisation with which to deal with such situations."

By: Anonymous - 6th October 2013 at 15:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Whilst I appreciate your devil's advocacy, Bruce, might I correct a couple of points. First, and to clarify, only one of the Corsair aircraft has been found (JT160) and the canopy is certainly not forward and locked. In fact, the opposite is the case. I quote:

"With its canopy locked back it is possible to view ROV images into the cockpit. Remarkably intact, there is clearly a collection of unidentified material laying across the instrument panel and control column. Whilst it is difficult to ascertain what this might be it is possible that it could be a parachute pack and flying overalls. Certainly, the whole of the instrument panel appears to be obliterated by something. An object lodged above the cockpit coaming might possibly be a femur."

Having had the opportunity to view almost an hour of ROV footage during the run-up to the legal proceeding I'd say there is no certainty remains are in the cockpit. In all probability, they may be. The presence of what may be clothing is a pointer, but the presence of the parachute means nothing, really. Certainly the pilot is unaccounted for, but that is all we know. A great deal of misinformation has been circulated about this case; no divers have been down, only one Corsair has been found and there is no definite evidence that remains are extant although I have modified my view on the certainty of that in recent weeks after reviewing all of the ROV footage. I was deliberately circumspect in my article for Britain at War magazine (extract above) in this matter. However, I do feel the wreck should be lifted if possible and a search made for Sub Lt Knott. But we do have a very different scenario, here, than that which exists with the P40.

The difference from the P40 is that a legal order, made in the State of Maine, prohibits interference with the site and it is unlikely that the MOD will seek to overturn that or that there is any likely legal challenge, especially given the subsequent death of one of the major players in this matter in the US.

As to the P40, we know that he died in or fairly close to the aircraft. He is still missing. Remains have been found, photographed and confirmed as human and not too far distant from the wreck. These are supposed to have been associated with remnants of parachute material. The Egyptian authorities and the MOD have been variously involved already in attempts to identify these remains which may, or may not, be related to Flt Sgt Copping. The debacle of that case is well known here. We do not know for certain if these remains have been recovered and tested since the information is conflicting and confusing. They may still be in the desert. Recovery of them by private parties is certainly very much on the agenda, and it is not likely that the MOD would stand in the way of this given all that has transpired. Worth mentioning, too, that some reports have indicated that the Defence Attache, British Embassy, Cairo, has indicated he was willing to journey into the desert to collect the remains if the location could be confirmed. So, in this instance and because of the circumstances, the MOD have indicated an apparent willingness to have the UK's man in Cairo deal with it pro-actively notwithstanding the fact that the case is shamefully shrouded in lies, misinformation and obfuscation. However, as stated, nobody has a clear idea as to what on earth has or hasn't gone on in this case.

By: Anonymous - 6th October 2013 at 15:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

It is just a reasonable deduction. If he didn't die in the aircraft it must have been 'fairly close'. Difficult to imagine that he would have got too far under those conditions, and he was almost certainly injured in the crash-landing. I suppose 'fairly close' is somewhat subjective, but relative to the size of the desert in which he went down, then that was the context of my comment. And in that respect, the discovered human remains with part of a parachute were 'fairly close'.

By: Anonymous - 1st November 2013 at 21:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I think dko is trying to say that the P40 was recovered from the desert but nobody cares about the fate of the pilot, and that the story seems to end there.

I think many who have read this thread have some sympathy with that sentiment. Certainly, the P40 has been recovered over a year ago from the desert by a team led by Tim Manna but the situation seems to have remained in limbo since then. For many months there was a blackout on discussing the P40 itself, and although that has now been lifted nobody is any the wiser as to what has occurred in respect of the RAF Museum's arrangement with Mr Manna.

More importantly, especially as we approach 11 November, the mystery of Flt Sgt Copping endures.