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By: 24th February 2015 at 06:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-perhaps USAF can buy trusty Tu-95 as replacement
By: 24th February 2015 at 06:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Vey intersting Madrat.
Given the numbers, I would go for a similar arrangement as original (8x engines) but with F414. Adding rear fan (decoupled) to the inboard doublets might suffice for a TO out of reheat and cruise. Reheat on the outboard will increase TO, climb rate and in general add kinetic cap to the old bird.
A rear mounted decoupled fan arragement had been studied and tested for the Convair's series of airliner. It's not as eco but the added advantage of simplicity and having a similar weight and geometry vis à vis of the airframe behavior after engine swap could prove a determining factor by preventing damaging the wings (years of similar solicitation and then a major modal modification is not really good for a metal assembly)
So 8x F414 with 4 inboard having a rear Fan and two pack of twin outboard mounted straight (no fan) but keeping reheat cap.
..or something like that ;)
By: 24th February 2015 at 07:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-How about replacing the 8 engines with 2 very large, and using the unused pylons for more weapons? And add winglets.
By: 24th February 2015 at 07:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-the structure is already fatigued so they cant carry max load anyway,least not on the wings
By: 24th February 2015 at 09:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Are they likely to go for a brand new engine or just get an incremental improvement from a 1980s technology engine held in stock ?
By: 24th February 2015 at 10:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Boeing has put on the table eight CF34-10, but I'm not sure -10A or -10E. It is already overpowered in the TF33 layout, so either one will suffice.
By: 24th February 2015 at 11:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Hard to believe the best-funded air force in the World has to go crawling for public-private funding to re-engine the Buffs.
Anyway, I believe the wing needs the outboard engines to provide bending-relief.
I'd propose four F117s ( PW PW2040 ) at 7,100 lb dry-weight each providing commonality with the C-17 fleet and plenty of commercial spares.
By: 24th February 2015 at 11:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-4 commercial engines would do just nicely.
By: 24th February 2015 at 13:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-I'm surprised this hasn't been done earlier, given the demands placed on the 52s ever since the end of the cold war, and considering the length they are likely to stay in service.
I would perhaps go for something along the lines of the PW4000-94, which could provide commonality with the KC-767 if it ever enters service.
By: 24th February 2015 at 14:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Sticking with the Bear theme, perhaps they could look to re-engine with TP400s?:D
And if not, can you frankenplane that one Madrat?
By: 24th February 2015 at 16:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Sticking with the Bear theme, perhaps they could look to re-engine with TP400s?:DAnd if not, can you frankenplane that one Madrat?
Should be easy !:D
By: 24th February 2015 at 16:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-High airflow engines close to the ground would be an issue unless the parking ramps, taxiways and runways are immaculate.
By: 24th February 2015 at 18:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Hard to believe the best-funded air force in the World has to go crawling for public-private funding to re-engine the Buffs.
It's been looked at several times, and I think it's not exactly a cost issue as much as a budgeting and politics issue. In the US, I regret that our Congress is not generally focused on long term efficiency as much as looking good for the next election campaign, which is frequently only a year away from the last election, and starts about a year from the next one (on our House of Representitives two year schedule). Since Congress is generally in a "cost savings" mode most of the time, supporting a multi-billion dollar engine replacement program which costs money now but doesn't save money until years down the road (after the next election) doesn't placate the "cut now" appetite of Congressmen who have to get elected again in the near term. So they keep kicking the can down the road as long as the existing equipment is working, however inefficiently. Given the need to fund the F-35 and replace the old KC-135s with the new KC-46, the AF's budget is straining to survive!
Also, when thinking about a replacement engine keep in mind that it isn't just about thrust, but also electrical generating capability (the BUFF uses a lot of power), so you have to get the right combination of available thrust and electrical generating capability. I'm not educated enough to understand the dynamics of that game off the top of my head.
By: 24th February 2015 at 20:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Agree, not just an exercise in replace x lbs of thrust with a similar amount of thrust. Weight, thrust lines, center of gravity, engine/wing dynamics, torsion/bending, FOD all come into play. Massive twins on the inners, or mixed powerplants are not the solution. 4 (or 8) well known engines, placed in about the same place is the way to go.
By: 24th February 2015 at 20:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-High airflow engines close to the ground would be an issue unless the parking ramps, taxiways and runways are immaculate.
Buff would go close to 900 km/h wih TP400 engines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A400M_Atlas
But it would not carry as much as before; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-52_Stratofortress
By: 24th February 2015 at 20:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-High airflow engines close to the ground would be an issue unless the parking ramps, taxiways and runways are immaculate.
That wouldn't be the case for the high-wing B-52. I thought there was a plan 10 years ago or so to reengine the B-52 with RR RB211 - but I don't think they make that engine anymore.
By: 24th February 2015 at 23:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Four engines is far easier to maintain than eight. But two is better yet than four. The only reason I can see going big like CF6-80C2 is because its well known to the USAF. If you were leaning towards modernization and cost was no issue then surely go eight CF34-10. But cost really is an issue and man hours drive costs of B-52H second only to fuel.
The TF33's are only ran about 80% of their potential, so there is leeway to drop overall thrust, too. And if you only hit 100,000 pounds of static thrust then you still reach the power of all previous B-52's that came before the TF33 engine was installed. The key is fuel efficiency and that pretty much means a good twin spool high bypass turbofan.
By: 25th February 2015 at 00:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Don't forget kinematics. A large fan doesn't provide you as much possibility of trajectory than a turbojet or a small fan (hence my proposal). And a bomber is a launching platform.
Imagine the bird fitted with 4x414 having reheat for example (see above). The Buff could climb and maintains speed giving it's weapon more range hence more safety for the launcher. That would be more difficult with a large turbo fan given the inherent limitation of such engines (AoA, G etc...).
Not speaking about a possible increase in ceiling (more range or surface for CAS).
IMOHO this is on ef the reason why the USAF has stuck so long with the TF33
By: 25th February 2015 at 01:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-It's penetration speed at low altitude is a modest 360knots: http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/B52S05.pdf
They need to remove the tail gun and install an EODAS for self protection. You would be far more protects using LOAL air-to-air missiles If it went two large engines and two asymmetrical smaller ones (F100?) then it gives reason to reinstall 1,000 gallon (pre- B-52H) or 3,000 (B-52C) gallon fuel tanks on the wings. How about each F100 has a pair of F-15E FASTpacks to lug around external LGB's and/or SDB's.
By: 25th February 2015 at 04:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-The guns were removed after the first Iraq war when a B-52 locked onto a U.S. fighter the fighter thought it was a sam and fired an anti-radiation missle that did not shoot down the bomber but did seriously damaged it.
Posts: 4,951
By: MadRat - 24th February 2015 at 04:18
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/once-again-the-usaf-is-looking-to-re-engine-its-b-52-fl-1685747978
Once Again The USAF Is Looking To Re-Engine Its B-52 Fleet
The USAF is kicking around 'creative concepts' under which it could re-engine its fleet of 74 ever evolving B-52H Stratofortresses. With the bombers remaining in front-line service until at least 2040, and considering that flying with eight 1960s vintage TF33 engines is far from fuel efficient (burning 3k gallons an hour), re-engined B-52s should make great financial sense.
Defensenews.com quoted Lt. Gen Mike Holmes, deputy chief of staff for Strategic Plans and Requirements, telling reporters at a February 6th event:
See also: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFYQFjAK&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acq.osd.mil%2Fdsb%2Freports%2FADA428790.pdf&ei=9PnrVPTFDYn3yQSY04G4BQ&usg=AFQjCNFHMXLshONfx-37wc2TJWICk-Tw7Q&sig2=zW_UxLHqD3eYQJe2rv6Mew&bvm=bv.86475890,d.aWw
My opinion:
I personally believe that they should aim for a pair of CF6-80C2, because they already own a stock of them. The outboards would still require weight, therefore place - for takeoffs emergency use only - a single F404 or F1x0 on each outboard. That would give them plenty of power on takeoff and in the event of an emergency to stay airborne albeit at greatly reduced range. The B-52E began life with 10,000 lb st J57's that were later upgraded to 13,000 pound static thrust each. The TF33's currently give takeoff thrust up to 17,000 pound static thrust. It's been possible on more than one occasion to remain airborne in older models with four engines. Even if one CF6-80C2 gave out, the remaining engine would suffice to remain airborne. Look at swapping out the 700-gallon wing tanks for the 1,000 gallon wing tanks from previous models to prevent wing flap on the lighter wing loading.
I built a list of weights and engines to compare:
1 ea. 3,000-gallon wing tanks (B-52C only) approx. 25,000 pounds each
1 ea. 1,000-gallon wing tanks (B-52A to B-52G) approx. 8,000 pounds each
1 ea. 700-gallon wing tanks (B-52H only) approx. 6,000 pounds each
1 ea. i-TF33-P-3 approx. 4,200 pounds ea. dry (Take-off 17,000 / Continuous ?) Fan 52" dia.
1 ea. CF6-80C2 approx. 9,000 pounds ea. dry (Take-off 62,100 / Continuous 53,000) Fan 93" dia.
1 ea. Trent 768 approx. 10,600 pounds ea. dry (Take-off 67,500 / Continuous ?) Fan 98" dia.
1 ea. GEnx-2B67 approx. 12,500 pounds ea. dry (Take-off 67,400 / Continuous 58,500) Fan 105" dia.
1 ea. Trent 875 approx. 13,100 pounds ea. dry (Take-off 75,000 / Continuous ?) Fan 110" dia.
1 ea. GEnx-1B67 approx. 12,800 pounds ea. dry (Take-off 69,400 / Continuous 61,500) Fan 111" dia.
1 ea. Trent 1000-A approx. 12,700 pounds ea. dry (Take-off 69,300 / Continuous 64,100) Fan 112" dia.
1 ea. GP7270 approx. 14,800 pounds ea. dry (Take-off 81,500 / Continuous 74,700) Fan 116" dia.
1 ea. Trent 970B-84 approx. 13,800 pounds ea. dry (Take-off 78,300 / Continuous 72,000) Fan 116" dia.
1 ea. GE F404 approx. 2,300 pounds ea. dry (Dry 11,000 / Wet 17,700) Max. 35" dia.
1 ea. GE F414 approx. 2,500 pounds ea. dry (Dry 13,000 / Wet 22,000) Max. 35" dia.
1 ea. F100-PW-220 approx. 3,800 pounds ea. dry (Dry 14,600 / Wet 23,800) Max. 47" dia.
1 ea. F110-GE-129 approx. 4,400 pounds ea. dry (Dry 18,000+ / Wet 29,400) Max. 47" dia.