Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!-

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For reference, the analogue APQ-120 had a MTBF in the single digits, and the first attempt at reliability testing the APG-66 (all-digital, air-cooled) failed, achieving 10 - 15 hours (60 envisaged). Meanwhile APG-63 MTBF goals were reduced from 150 originally to 60 hours (a level it didn't achieve out of the box either, and pre-APG-70 variants never made it past 80h). Last but not least, the infamous Blue Circle saga bears mentioning

The APQ-120 is the radar of the F-4 - that's about 2 generations before the Su-27. All you are doing is pointing out how the Mech N001 radar was actually a somewhat unadvanced radar for the 1980s.

It's the radar installed in the final F-4E variant, so the immediate predecessor to the APG-63/N001 generation. Due to its analogue architecture it provides some perspective on why the reliability achieved with the N001 with a hybrid analogue/digital approach (as opposed to fully digital in most of its US contemporaries) is actually quite respectable. Does that make it "unadvanced"? Only if the AWG-9, Foxhunter and RDM are "unadvanced" as well - the range & track-while-scan performance were certainly competitive with the APG-63.

If there is anything to justifiably criticize about the N001, I would argue that it's the weight (~400kg vs. ~250kg for the APG-63).

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I am not agree.

R-77-1 with around 100 kms data range its miles away from Amraam Aim 120 d (180 km)or C6, and worst situatuon against Meteor with a nez around 90 kms per 20-30 kms R-77-1. R-77 only received 1 update from 30 years ago. R73M can not compete too with Aim 9x or iris-T, do not have ir-imaging and only its 60º off-boresight. All western short misiles are ir-imaging and over 90º off-boresigh.

So no, its outdated weaponry. Of course can be lethal, but its miles away from western missiles in that moment

R-77-1 are decade old downgraded export figures.

based on indirect interpretation. R-77-1 has atleast 160km range. and latest R-37 is over 300km.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2012-01-20/russian-air-force-takes-upgraded-su-27s-intended-china
The Su-27SM(3) also features a new electronic warfare suite and improved targeting systems. The weapons package includes new missiles (Sukhoi declined to specify the type) and the air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles in the Su-27SM(3) arsenal have longer firing ranges
According to Sukhoi the Su-27SM(3) is more than twice as effective against aerial targets and three times more effective against ground targets than the Su-27S.

Those types of ranges are for head-on. The intercept is nowhere near that far (true of all stated AAM ranges).

In the case of the AIM-120D the constraints on target maneuvers are likely to be even more stringent than typical for such long ranges though. In a non-airbreathing (low ISP!) AAM of that size, 180km is only really credible if the trajectory is "lofted" (semi-ballistic), without mid-course corrections. Given a stealthy launch platform and a target with no (or obsolete) MAWS, having no idea that it is being fired upon, that may even be a reasonable assumption. However, the NEZ is still likely to be significantly smaller than in Meteor in a like-for-like comparison (despite the similar brochure range).

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If there is anything to justifiably criticize about the N001, I would argue that it's the weight (~400kg vs. ~250kg for the APG-63)

N001 - 575 kg, AN/APG-63 - 221 kg

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N001 - 575 kg, AN/APG-63 - 221 kg

This is good info. Was looking for this figure to break the myth that Su-30MKI's need canard to counteract radar weight. While the N011M Bars weighs like 650 Kg or only about 75 more Kg.

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In the case of the AIM-120D the constraints on target maneuvers are likely to be even more stringent than typical for such long ranges though. In a non-airbreathing (low ISP!) AAM of that size, 180km is only really credible if the trajectory is "lofted" (semi-ballistic), without mid-course corrections.

Or it's launched from an SR-71. :P

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N011M - 245 kg

http://paralay.world/su27m/su27m%20(397).JPG

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Are you real Sure Amraam 120D max range is 180km?

And if R-77-1 recieved an update very recent.. how is that bad exactly?

On this life nothing is sure except the dead.

This data is clasified by companies, but this around 180 kms is data you can find in diferent places on internet. Version D was a big improvement, told Raytheon comparing with previous Amraam. About Meteor all is said, is the best airtoair out there.

Yes FBW, you are reason. This data is head-on. This change a lot depending on the circumstances of the launch, altitude with respect to the enemy, launch speed, position respect enemy...

Of course, the ones that will take the most advantage are stealth planes, because they can take for the best launching position without being detected.

An F-35 with a Meteor (will be implemented soon) will be the most devilish thing that flies.

Really Russia need new big updates or new weapons on this area, it is not a surprise new weapons for Su-57. Airplane is important but not less important will be the weapons. All need to be on vanguard.

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RALL@ if you do not have any real figures on mussile range, then i suggest don't post at all. And similar if you don't even know Western A2A missile range, then you certaintly wont know any real Russian made A2A missile range figures.
But regardless you put up wishfully figures to fit your views of comparison.

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N011M - 245 kg

http://paralay.world/su27m/su27m%20(397).JPG

Isn't that a little on the light side of things..? Is thus only for the Array?
Does N001 and N001VEP have the same weight?

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RALL@ if you do not have any real figures on mussile range, then i suggest don't post at all. And similar if you don't even know Western A2A missile range, then you certaintly wont know any real Russian made A2A missile range figures.
But regardless you put up wishfully figures to fit your views of comparison.

I talked about information of the missiles that is public domain. So, do not tell me what i need post or not. If you do not like it is not my problem.

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Well said.

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I talked about information of the missiles that is public domain. So, do not tell me what i need post or not. If you do not like it is not my problem

R-77-1 range exceed Su-27 radar and that was decade ago. now double it again in 10 years. so most probably around 220km in 2018.
Phase 2 need upgrade to MIG31 radar for newer missiles.

http://fantasylab.ru/take-off-en/pdf_to/to18.pdf
Would you dwell on other of your efforts to expand the capabilities of the existing radars?
Just a fortnight ago, in late September, there was the first successful launch of an upgraded air-to-air missile by a Su-27SM3 prototype, with the missile hitting its target. To extend the missile’s range, we had upgraded the antenna, transmitter and RF update channel of the Su-27’s organic radar.
The Su-27SM3 upgraded fighter entered its official tests and, probably, will serve the pattern for upgrading the Su-27 fighters in combat units.

Phase Two will see the weapons suite beefed up through adopting advanced medium- and long-range missiles and upgrading the Zaslon radar accordingly.

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Well said.

What is well said, is that those figures from RALL is not pulled out from official sources.
But rather pulled out from his re@r.
I've been around here for some time now, every now and then, these missile claims pops up..
And guess what, they are just as factual incorrect today as they were last year and the year before that.

The only jet today that is capable of utilizing its own Speed as a slingshoot, thus improving its missile range to some degree, would be Mig-31.
But even that is a big stretch..
You probably have a limited separation launch speed on different jets.
If the target is not 20.000ft below you on an exact vector towards you.
And does not change heading at all until impact.
You must also have a cold winter time climat condition for max ooomph if your missile are air-breathing.

Blablabla, even then you would never a 180km range on Amraam120

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AIM-120D would have dual pulse engine but it was canceled so 50% better range then latest C versions was probable for dual pulse version.

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R-77-1 range exceed Su-27 radar and that was decade ago. now double it again in 10 years. so most probably around 220km in 2018.
Phase 2 need upgrade to MIG31 radar for newer missiles.

Be careful, because if you do not write some official source, the curse of Tutankhamen will fall on you.:o

ok now seriously, I think that who is very interested can open new thread about current missiles airtoair, and on this new thread to write all sources and to talk about it. By my side, this is the thread of the Su-57 and conversation should not go for other way more than necessary.

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AIM-120D would have dual pulse engine but it was canceled so 50% better range then latest C versions was probable for dual pulse version.

No and No. For the love of god,

If you don’t know the answer, don’t post. Two pages of conjecture: first KGB’s usual B.S., then the usual Marcellogo “I want this to be true so I’l post it”, now this.

The -120D’s range improvement has to do with the addition of GPS and the two way datalink. More efficient flight path, period.

We can start a pool on guesses for what that range actually is, because it’s classified, as is Aim-120’s burnout speed and quite a bit else.

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AIM-120D will still be inferior to a Meteor because of motor burnout. More efficient flight path only does so much.

Back to Su-57, when is the first serial airframe going to be out? I want to see what they do about pitot tubes. Trident said something about pressure sensor, so I want to see if it's that or if they stealth it up like on F-35.

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Isn't Pitot tubes about Atmospheric pressure..?

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@FBW
????????
I've said nothing about AIM-120D range, also because I didn't like the male reproductive organ measuration context" that usually spang forth from such kind of discourse.
It's quite evident that such inflated numbers refers to large, not manoeuvrable planes like AEW, tankers or transport, not small, low RCS and agile 4+ fighters.
As soon they made even a simple high G turn the advantage of a more efficient flight path just wane away, period.

About the "I want it to be true" , the usual design, development, production and introduction into service procedure in use by the Soviet, now Russian is the one I highlighted, period also in this case.
That everything doesn't even go smoothly (Delays, insufficient performances of some components as in the example you have done) is just in the normal order of things, same as it happen with other procedures, last but not least the standard western one ( that is NOT the F-35 one, thank God).
And yes, you are right, in the standard Sov/Rus there is a concurrency phase by default and is precisely the (very delicate) one in which Su-57 actually is: between the beginning of the industrialization process with the production of the "first serials", the end of State Trials and the awarding of the first contracted batch, all things that are pursued in parallel and not sequentially.

And in any case, it's not a better or a worse way of doing thing compared to other, it's just their own way, responding to their perceived needs, their well established doctrine and their own economical/productive structure.
So, if someone try to made forecast on the future production perspectives of a Russian military planes without keeping in mind those peculiar way of advance things or even worse try to apply the usual western model to it can only FAIL in a spectacular way, like an example someone thinking that the just contracted batch of 12 Su-57 in the 2018-2027 SAP means that they would serially produce 1,2 planes at year in the average...:stupid: