B787 as much as 5000lbs overweight!

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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=aWkNPl1b_47k

Boeing Co., the world's second-largest
commercial-aircraft maker, plans to redesign some of its 787
Dreamliner to reduce the plane's weight by as much as 5,000
pounds.
The work may reduce the price of the aircraft as fewer raw
materials will be needed, 787 program manager Michael Bair said
during a conference call.
Characterizing the move as a ''moderate part optimization,''
Bair said parts including brackets and wing ribs were over-
designed. ''It's a matter of looking at individual parts and saying,
'did we optimize this the best we could?' In some places the
answer was no,'' Bair said. ''It's a fairly long list of items.''

Also information on 787 production in the following link:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=act6dtKQUwKA

But...... The slight weight problem is still within promises made by boeing to its customers! But by any stretch of the imagination, 5000lbs is heavy!

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Profile picture for user Bmused55

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Yeah, its not matching Boeings internal goals yet. But it is well within specified parameters assured to customers.

Boeing have always promised one set of weights and strived for a lower set. Its how they work.

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2 tonnes i make that. For a big ish aircraft 2 minis does not sound that much!

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But this weight problem is befor they start adding engines and other essential stuff..whats to say that RR or GE miss there targets on weight? or testing shows a problem that the computers didnt and a re-design of a certain area is needed...all of a sudden 2 Mini's can be quite alot! :)

Boeing is going the correct way about it...admitting there is a slight problem and correcting the issue befor it becomes a bigger problem.

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Problem? As Bmused55 said, they are under their advertised weight but they still have another 5000 pounds to go to meet their own goal. I wouldn't really call that much of a problem. A better headline?

Boeing 787 underweight but Boeing officials still aim to eliminate another 5000 lbs.

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Ah... I'm hearing bigger baggage allowance already !!!

Although I do wonder if "over designed" is really a smoke screen for 'delayed arrival' ? Let's not mention that A380 project management team ... :rolleyes:

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If they were able to cut 3000lbs from the JSF then 5000lbs from a commercial jetliner should pose no problem.

Member for

17 years 10 months

Posts: 741

Problem? As Bmused55 said, they are under their advertised weight but they still have another 5000 pounds to go to meet their own goal. I wouldn't really call that much of a problem. A better headline?

Boeing 787 underweight but Boeing officials still aim to eliminate another 5000 lbs.

And eliminating 5000lbs could be beneficial in the future. Who knows what will happen. computers can only predict so much...Just ask Airbus!

Its within the contractual agrement set out to all the airlines that have ordered one. So that means there will not be any financial penalties to fork out... and in any agrement there is some degree of sway...Boeing didnt say that it will weigh XXX,XXXlbs exactly because that would be corparate suicide.

On the MD11 project, it didnt meet range expectations...American airlines went ballistic, and i from what i recall, they paid less than half price for each MD11 they got.

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17 years 10 months

Posts: 741

Ah... I'm hearing bigger baggage allowance already !!!

Although I do wonder if "over designed" is really a smoke screen for 'delayed arrival' ? Let's not mention that A380 project management team ... :rolleyes:

Over-designed also applies to the Engine Alliance engine on the A380, that finished up on the obese side, EA admitted to certain things which can be changed and re-worked, they just have slightly more time to play with!

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Boeing Co., the world's second-largest
commercial-aircraft maker, plans to redesign some of its 787
Dreamliner to reduce the plane's weight by as much as 5,000
pounds.
The work may reduce the price of the aircraft as fewer raw
materials will be needed, 787 program manager Michael Bair said
during a conference call.
Characterizing the move as a ''moderate part optimization,''
Bair said parts including brackets and wing ribs were over-
designed. ''It's a matter of looking at individual parts and saying,
'did we optimize this the best we could?' In some places the
answer was no,'' Bair said. ''It's a fairly long list of items.''

Also information on 787 production in the following link:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?...id=act6dtKQUwKA

But...... The slight weight problem is still within promises made by boeing to its customers

Boeing is well within the promised OEW's and the weight increase is on MEW targets set by boeing . Currently boeing doesnt see a reason to believe that they cannot work around the problem as 2-3% over weight is usually where most Developmental programs are on at this stage of development . Boeing has a contingecy plan to cut weight and that is based upon substituting Many Ali and other metalic parts with Titanium aswell as revewing the designs of some of the products to make them leaner . All in all boeing has 1 Plan in funding and 8 plans which are on the table if the problem gets out of hand.

But it is well within specified parameters assured to customers.

Correct

But this weight problem is befor they start adding engines and other essential stuff..whats to say that RR or GE miss there targets on weight? or testing shows a problem that the computers didnt and a re-design of a certain area is needed...all of a sudden 2 Mini's can be quite alot!

They factor everthing when they calculate these things . RR and GE arent seperated but are members of the program and in continues contact with boeing and other suppliers.

Although I do wonder if "over designed" is really a smoke screen for 'delayed arrival' ?

Why would this be when they are on record of claiming that the aircraft will EIS on time?

"Good, steady progress" on 787 as Boeing works to lighten up

Boeing's 787 is on schedule. Early practice production is going smoothly. A plan to take off extra weight is in place. And the new jet's boost to airline operating economics will be significantly better than originally projected.

That was the vigorously upbeat status report Monday from 787 program chief Mike Bair.

With the airplane less than a year from its first flight, the program is under intense scrutiny for early signs of the kind of disastrous stumbles that have led to two-year delays on the Airbus A380 superjumbo.

But if Bair is feeling the pressure, it isn't showing.

"I'm feeling good. We're seeing some good news as the partners put their parts together," he said during a quarterly news-briefing teleconference. "Some things where they've scheduled days to do the assembly, have happened in hours."

Bair admitted to teething problems. The plane is "a bit on the pouchy side," as he put it — meaning the design is about 5,000 pounds overweight, around 2 percent over the target weight. But he insists his baby is healthy.

"We have some challenges but we know what they are and we know how to deal with them," Bair said, "We're really happy with where we're at. The airplane is coming together."

Boeing even has contingency plans and available financing ready, he said, "to deal with things that haven't happened that might happen."

The most surprising news was the projection of even better economics on the 787.

Bair said his program originally predicted the jet's overall operating cost to airlines would be 8 to 10 percent better than the 767's. His analysts now calculate the operating cost improvement will be 2 or 3 points better than that target, at least 20 percent better than anticipated.

Bair said the extra savings to airlines will come from a "dramatic improvement" in maintenance costs for the noncorroding plastic airframe and the jet's simplified systems architecture.

Other points of interest from the call:

• "Virtual rollout" next month. Boeing will have a digital computer simulation of the entire production and assembly process in December. This will allow validation of such details as checking exactly where a bolt goes, whether there is sufficient clearance to insert it, and whether there's room for the mechanic's hands, before any of these parts are made.

• Wiring OK. Bair downplayed the likelihood of wiring problems of the sort that have plagued the A380. The new jet has about 60 miles of wiring, roughly two-thirds of that in the similar-sized 767. This compares with 350 miles of wiring in the A380 that's proved so problematic.

"It's a vastly different exercise for us," Bair said.

• Production in Everett. He characterized the Everett final assembly process as requiring light, flexible tooling that will require little investment. He added nothing new about production rates.

Output rates will go up because of demand, he said, though Boeing will be careful not to "get greedy and over commit before we have all the kinks worked out."

"It's not obvious to us, at the kind of [production] rates we're looking at, that we'd have to go to a second final assembly [line]," he said.

Diet plans

Bair spent some time addressing the persistent problem of the airplane's weight.

Boeing had approximately the same extra poundage in July 2005 when it began substantial efforts to slim the jet.

Yet Bair admitted on the call that in the interim other changes have added weight, so that "there's been upward pressure on it rather than downward."

Still, everything is under control, he said. His engineers have a diet plan.

They've identified small brackets and clips that can be made from lighter titanium rather than aluminum. And in some areas, where "it's obvious we overdesigned [parts] a little bit," he said, design tolerance margins can be shaved so that the parts are a little thinner and thus lighter.

"We know exactly what we need to do. We've got it scheduled. We've got it resourced," Bair said.

Bair rattled off a quick-fire list of accomplishments.

Airports at 787 partner facilities around the globe have been improved for delivery of large parts.

Grottaglie, Italy, has doubled the length of its runway. Nagoya, Japan, has put in extra ramp and dock facilities. Charleston, S.C., has extended a taxiway.

Large cargo-loading machines have already arrived in Italy, Japan and Everett.

The Japanese partners have made rapid progress in production.

Two weeks ago, Kawasaki finished a single-piece plastic fuselage barrel, the first one made outside the U.S. Fuji is already working on parts for planes 4 and 5. Mitsubishi has built a complete wing in a "field trial" and is building its first flight parts.

And on East Marginal Way, Boeing has created a lab with connected electronic boxes and actuators representing the airplane's flight controls and hydraulic systems, allowing testing of the disparate systems to see how they work together.

All tests so far in every part of the program are looking good, said Bair.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003356605_boeing07.html

Profile picture for user Bmused55

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Ah... I'm hearing bigger baggage allowance already !!!

Although I do wonder if "over designed" is really a smoke screen for 'delayed arrival' ? Let's not mention that A380 project management team ... :rolleyes:


Boeing do not have the luxury of being able to put out smoke screens. They have shareholders. Plus, I think there is some law limiting Boeing (and any shareholder company) to truthful press release about ongoing projects.
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Plus, I think there is some law limiting Boeing (and any shareholder company) to truthful press release about ongoing projects.

Standard SEC regulations , a company cannot hide anything adverse to its Buisness and if it is found out that they had known of delays but not reported to the Shareholders (therefore held back information which might adversly effect their share price) then they are in big trouble . Same thing with Airbus and the current investigation of their ex execs. who sold a lot of stocks prior to the announcment of delays.

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Boeing do not have the luxury of being able to put out smoke screens. They have shareholders.

And EADS doesn't?

Profile picture for user bring_it_on

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And EADS doesn't?

Nope , EADS doesnt either hence this -

Forgeard and other EADS executives are under investigation for dumping their company stock back in March, two months before public talk of a second delay in the A380 program surfaced.

Although formal charges of insider trading have not been established, both the German and French governments are looking into the fact that the executives got out at just the right time… and made money. A lot of investors have ridden the wreckage all the way down, though, as shares in EADS are off 25-percent from what they were just four months ago.

http://jogjaaero.org/?p=225

Not trained to compare the Two regulatory systems in Europe and US but i assume both should be quite tough vis-a-vis enforcing fair practices and reportings and Earnings warning etc .

Airbus just needs to look at boeing and see how much it can cost to do BAD BUISNESS ( 300 million in fines in 06).

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And EADS doesn't?

Never said they didn't