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By: - 6th July 2002 at 08:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: US-rogue nation in the making?????
Can't you see the pattern?
Free trade for everybody else, tariffs for Americans.
International Criminal Court for everybody, oh, except for Americans.
Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty for everybody, oh, except the Americans.
Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty, but for the US.
Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty for everybody else (applicable), not for the US...
MinMiester
By: - 6th July 2002 at 10:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: US-rogue nation in the making?????
I imagine the reason the U.S. does not want anything to do with this stupid idea is because of the flood of nuisance complaints that will inevitably follow from anyone that has ever been detained by them in war or peace keeping ops, its just that the U.S. is the only government with enough guts to oppose yet another level of needless beaurocracy, something our own government dare not do in case we upset europe, we have the War Crimes Tribunal for these matters, its like the stupid Euro Army idea, what the hell do they think NATO is for!!!!
Regards, Dazza.
By: - 6th July 2002 at 12:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: US-rogue nation in the making?????
tomel,
"(rogue nations)-for me,the US are slowly becoming one."
In my mind the US has been a rogue nation (as in one which disobeys international law to further it's own interests) since the collapse of the USSR.
Dazza,
The International War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (or a similar organ for Rwanda) is region specific. They cannot deal with war crimes commited outside the region they are assigned with. In fact, the War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia declined to investigate possible war crimes committed during the NATO aggression on Yug simply because NATO are outside their very specific area of juristiction.
The international court is a concept intended to create a world wide, permanent war crimes tribunal. The US isn't interested because they're already guilty of war crimes and intend to committ more.
By: - 6th July 2002 at 15:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: US-rogue nation in the making?????
As far as i'm concern ,the court only will accept case which occured after July 2002 or something like that-so the concern about previous action do not count.Still the US govt try to hide the blunt fact -they do not acknowledged others laws and points of view.Might is right?}>
By: - 7th July 2002 at 04:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: US-rogue nation in the making?????
When the many totalitarian regimes around the world (who are the real rogue states) become nations who rule with the consent of their people via proper and free elections and show respect for the human rights of their citizens and establish fair law and courts, then the UN can talk about an effective world court with some conviction. Until then its all BS and the US would be wise to stay out.
Regards
By: - 7th July 2002 at 11:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: US-rogue nation in the making?????
I am affraid if we want to have a moral right to judge abuses of human rights of all the rough regimes you mention, we should have an exemplary behavoir. If our soldiers don´t commit any abuse, why should be worried to be judge by international courts. The key point here is to articulate measures in the International Court to guarantee fair funtioning. Unfortunately even democracies commit atrocities and abuses of human rights and it´s normal (not moral)that goverments try to protect their soldiers.
By: - 7th July 2002 at 15:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: US-rogue nation in the making?????
Question: How many US servicemen have (in the last 12 years for example) been convicted of wrongly targeting civillians during a combat situation? I'm sure the answer is zero.
Even Russia, with it's crumbling, red-tape laden beurocracy has convicted it's own soldiers of acts which amount to warcrimes.
If a power like the US is prepared to intervene in/start conflicts around the world but isn't prepared to control it's own soldiers then we need a world court to control it for us. The failure to sign up to the world court is similar to failing to sign the Geneva Convention (although the US has seen need to ignore that in the past so maybe it doesn't much matter).
Sauron,
If you define a rogue state as one capable of flaunting international law in order to further it's own interests. A state which commits human rights abuses and doesn't answer to anyone for them, a state which has a dubious system for selecing governments. Then surely the US falls right into place.
By: - 7th July 2002 at 19:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Who are the real rogues??????
Ink
I don't believe I defined what a rouge state is but perhaps what it is not. Anyway, to fear the US is evolving into one is nonsense. There are plenty of real ones to worry about, however.
The US has probably been the leading advocate of prosecuting war crimes going back to the end of WWII. If it had been up to the Europeans, WWII criminals would not have had their day in court, just a speedy execution and we all know it. The US has been no more, no less guilty than any other major power in respecting civilans during the wars of the last century or so. It was always far from the worst and has certainly tried to avoid killing civilians in more recent times. It is not US policy to target civilians and runs counter to US interests.
The US does prosecute crimes commited by its military but there have been few major incidents and fewer (if any) involving the deliberate killing of civilians. That cannot be said of some other militaries and we all know the where, when, how and the who of many of these 'real crimes'.
If as you say, the Russians have begun taking action against Russian military personnel who commit crimes I guess its because there is reason to suspect that they have commited those crimes. But good for them if they have. Its about time.
Meanwhile, until the US issue with the ICC gets sorted out to the satisfaction of all parties (which it will) the US is quite justified in its position IMHO. If you believe that the fear of frivolous/ politically motivated charges will not be a real issue for the ICC , ask the various military leaders of the UN and NATO forces during the Balkins wars about it. They have all been targets of wars crimes charges from certain Balkin nations. Some of the UN commanders (British, French, Canadian, etc) carry letters of absolution from the UN in their pockets just in case one of the groups who did commit major and repetative wars crimes in the Balkins decides to bring up this type of garbage again as a means of diverting attention from the atrocities they commited.
Finally, its interesting to note where this thread started - in an area of the world, in which governments have only barely begun to respect the most basic of human rights and freedoms of there own peoples.
Regards
By: - 7th July 2002 at 19:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Who are the real rogues??????
I cannot believe what I'm hearing. The United States a "rogue" state?! What a load of crap! I've heard so much nonsense about how and why the United States is the bad guy on here. Nobody is perfect and all countries have done bad things, but the things the United States has done doesn't even compare to some of the things the real rogue nations have done. The truth is that people are simply looking for a reson to knock the U.S. because we are the most successful country to date. The funny thing is that so many of you are so convinced that you know how Americans are. You seem to also be able to tell us how to run our lives. The more crap I hear off this board, the more fortunate I feel to live in the United States.
Get a new topic guys (or better yet a life period), this anti-U.S. crap is getting old.
By: - 7th July 2002 at 20:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Who are the real rogues??????
PII,
"You seem to also be able to tell us how to run our lives."
First of all, I don't think America is a rogue state, although I do believe you have a President who does your country and your people little credit. As for others telling you how to run your lives, surely the reverse is true in equal if not greater measure. The US holds a veto in the UN security Council, you totally ignore the Kyoto accords, the US 'runs' the war against terror (and weddings apparently). The US is indeed a great nation, but like any other, you have to admit they like to get their own way. And they usually do, even if it's by virtue of being the nation which can wield the biggest stick. Tomel and others are simply asking why such a great nation is afraid of aligning itself with others over war crimes and the international court. A cynic might suggest that America might have something to hide?
"The more crap I hear off this board, the more fortunate I feel to live in the United States."
If this kind of comment is the best argument you can give in support of your country's stance, there's probably a lot of other people who feel fortunate that you live in the United States.
"Get a new topic guys (or better yet a life period), this anti-U.S. crap is getting old."
Why? It seems some people are quite happy to discuss this topic in an open and sensible manner. You, however, automatically engage defensive mode and tell us we're talking crap. A mature and reasoned response. It may surprise you to know that an awful lot of non-Americans actually have a life. I realise it might not be as good as yours but most of us manage. It might also surprise you to know that the people of many other nations are grateful for what America has done in the past and continues to do today. But you can't put yourself above the law, other nations have done it and Americans have died to clear up the mess.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 8th July 2002 at 07:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Who are the real rogues??????
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-07-02 AT 07:50 AM (GMT)]PhantomII:
"I cannot believe what I'm hearing. The United States a "rogue" state?! What a load of crap! I've heard so much nonsense about how and why the United States is the bad guy on here."
Yup, good argument mate, very conclusive and persuasive.
"Nobody is perfect and all countries have done bad things, but the things the United States has done doesn't even compare to some of the things the real rogue nations have done"
And if those rogue states should suffer for their wrong deeds, why shouldn't the US? The US applies the laws of human rights only when it suits them.
"The truth is that people are simply looking for a reson to knock the U.S. because we are the most successful country to date"
And you say you aren't arrogant or ignorant...
How exactly do you come to the conclusion "the most successful country to date"? What, ever since the beginnings of human civilization? On a military/industrial/economical platform, the US doesn't even come close to the domination the Romans, Greeks and Chinese enjoyed at the height of their ancient civilizations.
"The funny thing is that so many of you are so convinced that you know how Americans are"
No, Americans as a whole are very nice people. A lot of us are simply convinced that under current and past policies, the US is not doing as good a job as it could and should as the world's current most powerful nation. Being all-powerful doesn't mean you can just gloat about it, it carries responsibilities that the US seems unwilling to meet, instead using its superiority to further its own ways instead of the world's.
"The more crap I hear off this board, the more fortunate I feel to live in the United States."
Joy, you go on thinking that.
MinMiester
By: - 8th July 2002 at 08:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Who are the real rogues??????
The US is neither better nor worse than any other powerful country in its hey days. All countries think about their interests alone and put them supreme to the rest of the world- If the world doesnt like it it can get stuffed !!
It doesnt amaze me that the US tries to push its weight around - what pisses me off is the constant moral lecturing the US gives the rest of the world, and the self-assumed right it honours itself with to lable other nations as "rogue" or evil empires. I wish they could cut that crap - coz they dont fool anybody.
Having decided to excercise such blatant arrogance and double standards - it isint surprising that it also leads to the kind of hate we saw on 9/11.
Having said that the rest of the world is equally guilty of using the US when it suits their interests - lets face it if you had to choose between the US and the Soviet Union as a sole superpower- I'd go for the US anyday. There are great things and institutions that come out of America, unfortunately, we just take it for granted and therefore dont realise its importance.
By: - 8th July 2002 at 14:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Who are the real rogues??????
Ok they are obviously not iran, iraq, north korea, etc
but they have some big problem wiht internatioanl law. they put sanctions on other nations for not signing some treaties but also themselves fail to sign them. these souble standards and hypocracy cuase this rection tha sauron, PII, and others can't understand.
Free trade - the USa loves free trade but what about steel, can you expalin it ???
International Criminal Court - ok i see yoour objection but the rest of the world ahs no problem. no one has been brought up on the types of charges the us has been afraid of since the whole war crimes ystem was set up. on the same line its ok for the us gov to abduct anyone from anywhere in the world and take them to trial in the states - so why can't everyone else do this ?
Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty - was this not the cause of the presler amendment on pakistan back in 1990 odd.
Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty - why not, evryone else is signing it. you know your bombs work, you don't need to design new ones so what the problem. omnce youve built the neutron bomb, 50 megaton bomb, and everything ....
Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty - is the basis of detent and all subsequent arms treaties. the NMD won't stop rouge states attacking america and north korea's missiles will at best/worse }> hit alaska / pearl harbour which the system won't stop.
BUT at the end of the day our our best allies, although you (america) lot are nieve in your outlook to diplomacy. then again i think that not all of you are bad. i have great hopes for the kind of people like McCain and Colin Powell
RANT OVER
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Rabie :9
By: - 11th July 2002 at 09:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Who are the real rogues
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-07-02 AT 09:06 AM (GMT)]$
By: - 11th July 2002 at 09:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some thoughts of mine.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-07-02 AT 10:07 AM (GMT)]"Unfortunately even democracies commit atrocities and abuses of human rights ..."
I agree, a democracy doesn't mean that you respect human rights. I don't know why people mix them up so often. A has got the right to attack B because A is a democratic nation and B is not. Well, a war is never democratic, and democracy is no guarantee for peace. (Hitler was also elected).
"If you define a rogue state as one capable of flaunting international law in order to further it's own interests. A state which commits human rights abuses and doesn't answer to anyone for them, a state which has a dubious system for selecing governments. Then surely the US falls right into place."
No, because a rogue state is something which is made up in Bush mind. A rogue state is a state which does not share the same interests as the USA. The USA - as the only nation capable of policing the world - will define who's on the list of rogue states and who's not. Saudi Arabia, a great democracy where the human rights are well respected (especially for gays and women), is not on it for example, because they are the 'good guys'. :x
"The US has probably been the leading advocate of prosecuting war crimes going back to the end of WWII. If it had been up to the Europeans, WWII criminals would not have had their day in court, just a speedy execution and we all know it."
So why doesn't the US threat the captured Taliban-warriors under the Geneva-convention? Why do they install courts specially meant to prosecute non-US residents on behalf of terrorism. Nurnberg was a very nice show, but everyone knew that the Nazi's would be hanged. In fact, most nazi's would have rather been shot at sight than having to go through this whole show.
"Finally, its interesting to note where this thread started - in an area of the world, in which governments have only barely begun to respect the most basic of human rights and freedoms of there own peoples."
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"The more crap I hear off this board, the more fortunate I feel to live in the United States."
You are right PII, we are also glad you live in the United States, far away from the rest of the world, which is infected by the 'evil'-virus. Luckily the Yanks are not contamminated by it.
"The truth is that people are simply looking for a reson to knock the U.S. because we are the most successful country to date"
How do you expect people on this forum to take you serious? To most sucessful country to date? Well, what about the Roman Empire, China, India, the British Empirte. Ohh, forgot, the world only started back in 1776, after the declaration of independence.
By: - 11th July 2002 at 09:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: US-rogue nation in the mak
>tomel,
>In my mind the US has been a rogue nation (as in one which
>disobeys international law to further it's own interests)
>since the collapse of the USSR.
only since then? ha ha }>
(can think of numerous examples)
Posts: 707
By: tomel - 6th July 2002 at 07:25
Can somebody gave me a clear explaination why the US do not want its soldiers to be judged by an international court.Are they saying that the US servicemen -perfect or too good to judged by another countries if they commited a crime while performing their so call peacekeeping duties?It is a pity to see such a proud and great nation like the US failed to lead by examples and this is the nation which preached human rights and so on.Most of the recent action of the US govt failed to show the world - about their sincerity in fighting the world manace(rogue nations)-for me,the US are slowly becoming one.