Malaysian B.777 MH One Seven downed over Ukraine.

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Whoever shot it down must be brought to justice. This is indiscriminate mass murder.

Not to belittle what has happened... but approximately the same number of people have been killed in Gaza in the last 10 days.

Or, over 100,000 have died in Syria.

Lets not go hyperbole just because its something that may be relevant to you rather than restricted to definitely happening to only some other poor bstart in some distant country.

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Indeed. Until it is irrevocably clear that it was a planned aggressive act and not an error mistaking the aircraft for a military target such statements contribute little to the debate.

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Do you really think whoever did it, did so on purpose?

The design of these weapons makes an accidental firing so near impossible as to be unlikely, and you don't fire a SAM missile for giggles and then say 'sorry!'

A tragic accident is far likelier, barring a technical fault.

What sort of tragic accident, like someone thinking that they are firing at a military aircraft when in fact it is a civilian airliner? That 'sort' of accident?

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Not to belittle what has happened... but approximately the same number of people have been killed in Gaza in the last 10 days.

Or, over 100,000 have died in Syria.

Not trying to belittle them but...the people in Gaza and Syria are in internationally recognised conflict zones: you might not be happy about it but if you are there you know there is an element of danger. The people on this airliner, on the other hand, were probably unaware that they were flying over a war zone - that is a concern for the authorities to answer to - and the (hopefully) last thing on their minds was that they could be the target for trigger-happy bozo with a SAM system at his disposal.

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From Avherald :

On Jul 18th 2014 the USA announced, that the missile has been launched inside the borders of the Ukraine.

Also, the separatists have the flight recorders and want to send them to Moscow.

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Live on WSJ

Obama says flatly #MH17 shot down by a missile fired from territory controlled by Russian-backed separatists.
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Can Moscow access them?

Can Moscow be trusted with the information if they can?

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Can Moscow access them?

Can Moscow be trusted with the information if they can?

@Snafu, just off of Avherald

On Jul 18th 2014 Russia's Interstate Aviation Committee (MAK), responsible for investigation of aviation accidents, announced that they believe in the circumstances of the crash of MH-17 the investigation should be carried out under the supervision of the ICAO. The blackboxes will therefore be handed over to the ICAO for investigation.

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@Snafu, just off of Avherald

Good.

Last thing we need is this feeding the fire thats burning already over and in Ukraine.

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Well, that is positive.

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As has been said the airspace above 30000ft was open... why? simple... the separatists only had shoulder launched SAMs.
They cant hit a target at that altitude. All previous shoot downs inside Ukraine were with shoulder launched missiles aimed at military aircraft flying at low and medium level.

Its been alledged that the BUK SAM missile system was taken from a Ukrainian base which was over run a few weeks ago. Now if correct how would they know how to use it?
It would take weeks of training etc in order to work how, unless of course those using it had previous experience.

Video emerged today of a BUK missile launcher on the back of a civilian flat bed truck in the immediate area of the shoot down, with one of its 4 missiles missing.

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BBC :

A team of international observers say pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine have limited their access to the wreckage of a Malaysia Airlines plane.

Read more...

This isn't going to help things.

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@Snafu, just off of Avherald

On Jul 18th 2014 Russia's Interstate Aviation Committee (MAK), responsible for investigation of aviation accidents, announced that they believe in the circumstances of the crash of MH-17 the investigation should be carried out under the supervision of the ICAO. The blackboxes will therefore be handed over to the ICAO for investigation.

If accurate, it shows that Russia may be trying to be a good neighbor and trying to distance themselves from this. Is this some good news or will they revert to the old Soviet style of blocking or hindering the investigation?
The question is did Russia have any control over the SAM, or was it completely controlled by separatists? I don't believe either would intentionally shoot down a third party airliner.

From a world opinion viewpoint, it sounds like they realize shooting down a plane largely filled with Europeans isn't the same thing as the downing the Korean 707 and 747 back in the 80s (where half of the world was more than willing to believe they were on a spy mission).

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The black boxes won't tell us where the missile came from or who launched it.

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From WSJ :

“There are federal emergency service workers at the scene…But they have no freedom of movement. They are not allowed to leave the zone [under the control of the separatists]. The terrorists are taking all evidence that they gather,” said Andriy Lysenko, the spokesman for the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council.

Read more...

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If accurate, it shows that Russia may be trying to be a good neighbor and trying to distance themselves from this. Is this some good news or will they revert to the old Soviet style of blocking or hindering the investigation.
I've been thinking on that, but the black boxes are pretty irrelevant. Perhaps the pilots mention on the CVR that they see a missile incoming. Perhaps the FDR data can explain where specifically the plane was hit. But that still does not answer the critical question of who did it.

For that you need missile debris containing serial numbers. And if that debris has not already vanished or been tampered with we need opennes from the Russian and Ukrainian military (or the missile's manufacturer) to establish who owned the missile. Was it from Russian stock, or have the rebels stolen it from Ukrainian inventory.

I am not expecting such opennes from Russia as it would prove their involvement in the conflict, which they are still officially denying. Neither am i expecting such openness from the Ukraine as they want to prove to the world that Russia has started a proxy war. The missile manufacturer won't do so either cause they are a Russian company.

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As has been said the airspace above 30000ft was open... why? simple... the separatists only had shoulder launched SAMs.
They cant hit a target at that altitude. All previous shoot downs inside Ukraine were with shoulder launched missiles aimed at military aircraft flying at low and medium level.

Its been alledged that the BUK SAM missile system was taken from a Ukrainian base which was over run a few weeks ago. Now if correct how would they know how to use it?
It would take weeks of training etc in order to work how, unless of course those using it had previous experience.

Video emerged today of a BUK missile launcher on the back of a civilian flat bed truck in the immediate area of the shoot down, with one of its 4 missiles missing.

The real question is, if the Ukrainian air control knew that there were stolen Buk systems, why it didn't close the airspace above the war zone right away. I don't want to go to the other thread to argue who is right or wrong. I think it is time to review the safety regulations concerning civilian flights over war zones.

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The answer to your question and indeed others begged, is that "terrorists" are accountable to no one but themselves and act outside the norms of behavior in circumstances such as these.

The likelihood of the authorities being able to undertake a conventional investigation is pretty remote, I would have thought.

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I wonder who the preceeding civilian plane who passed through the area was and what his lucky talisman is?

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Its been alledged that the BUK SAM missile system was taken from a Ukrainian base which was over run a few weeks ago. Now if correct how would they know how to use it?
It would take weeks of training etc in order to work how, unless of course those using it had previous experience.

Of course, if you 'borrowed' a few Buk trained patriots, who would willingly give up a few hours of their time (with permission from their CO) then you wouldn't need to train rebels...;o)

The black boxes won't tell us where the missile came from or who launched it.

But it will tell us that the airliner was operating normally up until the point of impact, that it wasn't a mechanical malfunction that brought it down.