By: TomcatViP
- 26th March 2015 at 04:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sounds rather strange to me. I can't see official sources releasing any preliminary findings so soon.
Weird also that we haven't heard so far about German experts being flown to France to join the investigation team. [EDIT: 3 arrived this morning]
A Lufthansa spokesman said the carrier was aware of the Times story, adding: "We have no information from the authorities that confirms this report and we are seeking more information. We will not take part in speculation on the causes of the crash. "
Also, something seemed wrong in the procedure:
are co-pilots supposed to be left alone in the cockpit?
"Procedurally, something was very wrong," said Glen Winn, an aviation instructor at the University of Southern California and an expert in aviation security and anti-terrorism.
"You ask any pilot, they’ll tell you the same thing," Winn said. "They don’t leave a person alone in the cockpit. They don’t do it. Nobody does that."
[...]
typical procedure is for a flight attendant to use a food cart to block access to the cockpit when the pilot opens the door to leave. A flight attendant is supposed to remain in the cockpit and open the door for the pilot upon his or her return.
When the flight crew does not respond to requests for entry, the door can also be unlocked by
the cabin crew, by entering a two to seven-digit code (programmed by the airline) on the keypad,
installed on the lateral side of the Forward Attendant Panel (FAP).
The door is bulletproof and fully compliant with rapid decompression
[...]
In case of an electrical supply failure, the door is automatically unlocked, but remains
closed.
[...]
[A] buzzer sounds in the cockpit for 1 to 9 s to indicate that a routine access request has been
made, or sounds continuously if an emergency access procedure has been initiated.
We shld hear that sound on the Voice Recorder unless the Lock mode was activated (read bellow).
Some hve argued that the co-pilot might hve remain conscious since he had to deny an Emergency entry via the keypad, but there is a Lock mode available on the switch button on the central pedestal ctrl panel in the cockpit (3 position Unlock, Norm and lock) :
LOCK position : Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ; emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are inhibited for a preselected time (5 to 20 min).
It is possible that this mode could hve been used by default by some crew or companies.
By: TomcatViP
- 26th March 2015 at 05:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We have the same scenario as in the rescent UK Voyager report.
Bellow an illustration to depict flight stick mode
[ATTACH=CONFIG]236271[/ATTACH]
If you push once, you need to pull back to retrieve initial trajectory. With a conventional plane, the trajectory is an equilibrum btw speed and height (as a function of the trim level).
In the case of the German A320, if the co-pilot once left alone in the cockpit felt unconscious (incapacitated) and pushed inadvertently the stick, the plane would have stabilized in a dive with the AP and safety systems regulating the acceleration and max allowed speed.
from Airbus manual:
Flight path stability instead of speed stability
- control inputs are made to alter the flight path, not
to hold it.
Effectively, if there is nobody anymore to alter a wrong input... Would you like your steering wheel acting the same?
But we hve alrdy discussed all that in the Stuntman thread and around AF447 with the ridiculous cheap spring mounted stick mechanism endorsed by Airbus.
Source:
A319-320-321 Flight Deck and Systems Briefing for Pilots
By: Deano
- 26th March 2015 at 09:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Agree with Amiga, we have a virtually identical system on the Embraer195/175, it would take positive action from a crew member to override an attempt by anyone trying to gain access to the flightdeck.
By: TomcatViP
- 26th March 2015 at 09:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lock mode available on the switch button on the central pedestal ctrl panel in the cockpit (3 position Unlock, Norm and lock) :
In the aircraft Manual:
LOCK position : Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ; emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are inhibited for a preselected time (5 to 20 min).
By: Amiga500
- 26th March 2015 at 10:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think it might be some sort of habits or procedure to keep crew member safe from being held in hostage for the password.
Yes, thats the idea - but its not something that is engaged until required. Procedure would be strictly not to arm this system unless required - exactly because of any unforeseen medical emergency to the pilot in the cockpit.
[i.e. when the cabin crew/would be hijacker are battering on the door looking access codes.]
By: masr
- 26th March 2015 at 12:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It;s just been announced on the BBC Website that the co-pilot deliberately locked the captain out of the cockpit and crashed intentionally. If correct this makes the event even more awful
Mike
By: Bombgone
- 26th March 2015 at 12:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sadly my own suspision seems to have been confirmed this morning. The autopilot would have flown the aircraft to Duseldorf dispite any theries of decompression. Shortly after reaching 39000 ft, a new heading and slow rate of decent seems to have been selected by one of the pilots overriding the autopilot. My thoughts are with the passengers and crew caught up in this horrific event.
By: Bob
- 26th March 2015 at 12:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Certainly sounds like the co-pilot locked the Captain out of the cockpit - if a person has a suicide wish why do they also feel it right they take 150 other innocent people along with them? Just jump off a bridge instead...
By: Lincoln 7
- 26th March 2015 at 13:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Suicide committed by himself, would hardly get a mention in his local rag. However, by taking all those other unfortunate people with him, he has gained World Wide publicity, and his name will go down in the History books of Aviation.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
By: charliehunt
- 26th March 2015 at 14:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Information is being updated directly from the German Prosecutor's office. Andreas Lubitz can presumably be described as a mass murderer. The aircraft impacted at 700kph.
By: mike currill
- 26th March 2015 at 16:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That low?
edit:
But you might be right. Searching for crash field under clouds cover. The 135 take a path along the mountain ridge (hence looking as if it flew from Nice for observer on the ground) and the fighter a more direct approach following the A320 trajectory.
The 135 might then have stayed airborne as a radio relay for the advanced frwd base for the rescue team the time proper comunication devices were brought in.
By: Comet
- 26th March 2015 at 16:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Andreas Lubitz can presumably be described as a mass murderer. The aircraft impacted at 700kph.
I wouldn't have thought there would be any doubt that the thing was a mass murderer - deliberately crashing an aircraft with 150 people on board must surely count as murder.
Posts: 5,905
By: TomcatViP - 26th March 2015 at 04:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Weird also that we haven't heard so far about German experts being flown to France to join the investigation team. [EDIT: 3 arrived this morning]
Also, something seemed wrong in the procedure:
We shld hear that sound on the Voice Recorder unless the Lock mode was activated (read bellow).
Some hve argued that the co-pilot might hve remain conscious since he had to deny an Emergency entry via the keypad, but there is a Lock mode available on the switch button on the central pedestal ctrl panel in the cockpit (3 position Unlock, Norm and lock) :
It is possible that this mode could hve been used by default by some crew or companies.
Source:
Reuters.com
La Times
Airbus A320 Operating Manual
Posts: 5,905
By: TomcatViP - 26th March 2015 at 05:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We have the same scenario as in the rescent UK Voyager report.
Bellow an illustration to depict flight stick mode
[ATTACH=CONFIG]236271[/ATTACH]
If you push once, you need to pull back to retrieve initial trajectory. With a conventional plane, the trajectory is an equilibrum btw speed and height (as a function of the trim level).
In the case of the German A320, if the co-pilot once left alone in the cockpit felt unconscious (incapacitated) and pushed inadvertently the stick, the plane would have stabilized in a dive with the AP and safety systems regulating the acceleration and max allowed speed.
from Airbus manual:
Effectively, if there is nobody anymore to alter a wrong input... Would you like your steering wheel acting the same?
But we hve alrdy discussed all that in the Stuntman thread and around AF447 with the ridiculous cheap spring mounted stick mechanism endorsed by Airbus.
Source:
A319-320-321 Flight Deck and Systems Briefing for Pilots
Posts: 2,163
By: Amiga500 - 26th March 2015 at 08:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So how did the door override lock get engaged?
Posts: 5,905
By: TomcatViP - 26th March 2015 at 09:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think it might be some sort of habits or procedure to keep crew member safe from being held in hostage for the password.
Preset is only 5 min but can be extended manually. That might be why the tension took time to rise in the voice of the Pilot lock out.
So, in that hypo, the Pilot exit, the copi lock the door and then experience something that let him incapacitated...
Posts: 2,623
By: Deano - 26th March 2015 at 09:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Agree with Amiga, we have a virtually identical system on the Embraer195/175, it would take positive action from a crew member to override an attempt by anyone trying to gain access to the flightdeck.
Posts: 5,905
By: TomcatViP - 26th March 2015 at 09:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lock mode available on the switch button on the central pedestal ctrl panel in the cockpit (3 position Unlock, Norm and lock) :
In the aircraft Manual:
Posts: 2,163
By: Amiga500 - 26th March 2015 at 10:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, thats the idea - but its not something that is engaged until required. Procedure would be strictly not to arm this system unless required - exactly because of any unforeseen medical emergency to the pilot in the cockpit.
[i.e. when the cabin crew/would be hijacker are battering on the door looking access codes.]
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 26th March 2015 at 12:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Alps crash
The Marseille prosecutor has just said during interview, that 'voluntary' actions of the co-pilot resulted in the crash.
Posts: 57
By: masr - 26th March 2015 at 12:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It;s just been announced on the BBC Website that the co-pilot deliberately locked the captain out of the cockpit and crashed intentionally. If correct this makes the event even more awful
Mike
Posts: 384
By: Bombgone - 26th March 2015 at 12:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sadly my own suspision seems to have been confirmed this morning. The autopilot would have flown the aircraft to Duseldorf dispite any theries of decompression. Shortly after reaching 39000 ft, a new heading and slow rate of decent seems to have been selected by one of the pilots overriding the autopilot. My thoughts are with the passengers and crew caught up in this horrific event.
Posts: 3,566
By: Bob - 26th March 2015 at 12:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Certainly sounds like the co-pilot locked the Captain out of the cockpit - if a person has a suicide wish why do they also feel it right they take 150 other innocent people along with them? Just jump off a bridge instead...
Posts: 8,505
By: mike currill - 26th March 2015 at 13:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree Bob.
Posts: 8,980
By: TonyT - 26th March 2015 at 13:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yep Suicide, agree with BOB, go do it where it doesn't effect others..
see
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/mar/26/germanwings-plane-crash-investigation-press-conference-live-updates-4u9525
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 26th March 2015 at 13:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Suicide committed by himself, would hardly get a mention in his local rag. However, by taking all those other unfortunate people with him, he has gained World Wide publicity, and his name will go down in the History books of Aviation.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 26th March 2015 at 14:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Information is being updated directly from the German Prosecutor's office. Andreas Lubitz can presumably be described as a mass murderer. The aircraft impacted at 700kph.
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 26th March 2015 at 14:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?134325-Germanwings-airliner-crashes-in-French-Alps
Posts: 8,505
By: mike currill - 26th March 2015 at 16:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That seems logical to me.Posts: 1,940
By: Comet - 26th March 2015 at 16:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I wouldn't have thought there would be any doubt that the thing was a mass murderer - deliberately crashing an aircraft with 150 people on board must surely count as murder.
Posts: 2,536
By: hampden98 - 26th March 2015 at 17:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gives the airlines an awful conundrum.
Lock the door to keep nutters out or lock the door and keep nutters in?
Posts: 5,339
By: Flygirl - 26th March 2015 at 17:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sad times we live in !