Boeing: new projected data on 747ADV and stunning performance upgrade for 772LR

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from www.atwonline.com

Boeing released to ATWOnline the latest performance data for the 747ADV, which is gaining significant momentum. According to the company, the aircraft with 450 passengers will have 2% higher trip costs and 6% lower seat-mile costs than a 747-400 with 416 passengers.
Using its US international rules, Boeing claims that the 747ADV will have 19% lower trip costs and 3% lower seat-mile costs than an A380 with 542 passengers. The 747ADV will have an MTOW of 930,000 lb. and a range of 8000 nm with a noise footprint 40% less than the 747-400.

Regional Director-Product Marketing Mike Wilson told this website that the company hopes to have aircraft definition by mid-2005 with a launch in the first half of 2006 and delivery in the first half of 2009.

Boeing also released new performance data for its 777-200LR, which will enter service in 2006. The aircraft will be capable of flying between Singapore and New York with 301 passengers and 18,000 lb. of cargo and returning with 301 passengers and 16,000 lb. of cargo. The dramatic hike in performance is the result of flight test and commercial service experiences on the 777-300ER, which is exceeding all performance guarantees, according to Boeing officials. The 777-300ER is now capable of carrying 365 passengers and bags plus 5,000 lb. of cargo on the New York-Hong Kong route.--Geoffrey Thomas

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A good idea. Its no competition to the A380 but is bigger as the A346/B773. A 1:1 replacement of the 747-400. I think 200 orders

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A good idea. Its no competition to the A380 but is bigger as the A346/B773. A 1:1 replacement of the 747-400. I think 200 orders

for once we agree :)

Boeing do not want to compete with the A380... they don't see a big enough demand for such a size of aircraft. Many current 747 operators, including CX and BA have been pushing for an upgraded 747 for years.

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747 ADV

From Flug Revue September 2004 :

BOEING STUDIES 747 ADVANCED
By Sebastian Steinke

The good old Boeing 747 is having a tough time these days: on the one hand, the A380 threatens to upstage it as the biggest civil aircraft in the world, while on the other hand rivals that were originally smaller than the jumbo are also poaching customers in what was once the undisputed territory of the double-decker giant from Seattle. Apart from the A380, two other contenders are the A340-600, with its high cargo capacity, and the 777-300ER, which may have only two engines but is constantly being improved.

But Alan Mullaly, President and CEO, Boeing Commercial Airplanes, is confident that the time to cease production of the tried and tested four-jet aircraft has not yet arrived. “The Boeing 777 will gradually replace the older versions of the 747, that is, the -100, -200 and -300, as it offers the same seat mile costs. In the past 747's were often purchased purely because of their range, without the capacity really being needed. One day the 777 will even replace all the 747's. But the 747-400 will stay around for many years to come, and we will continue to improve it. We plan to make a decision about the 747 over the next year.”

To significantly improve the time-tested 747 a second time will be no simple matter: the present highly successful -400 version, which has won 659 orders so far, is the product of a major update programme carried out by the manufacturer at the end of the 1980s and aimed at modernising the jumbo basic design, which dated from the 1960s. This entailed the installation of modern engines, a two-man cockpit and improved aerodynamics. Significantly more elaborate plans that would have entailed lengthening the 747 into an A380 competitor and would have required an entirely new wing had to be shelved despite several initiatives, due to lack of interest on the part of the airlines.

Today Boeing is following a different approach with the further development of the 747, as Brad Till, regional director of product marketing for the 747, explained in an interview with FLUG REVUE in Seattle. “We do not see any market in the size of the 747 that would justify developing a completely new aircraft. No one wants an 800-seater. Instead, we are planning a series of improvements that will not cost hundreds of thousands of engineer-hours, but will still bring a lot of benefit.”

The 747 Advanced could carry 34 passengers and two freight pallets more than a 747-400 and also satisfy the stringent QC2 take-off noise restrictions around London Heathrow. Its 1,370km extra range would permit non-stop flights from Frankfurt to Buenos Aires, from Hong Kong to New York or from Sydney to Dallas.

Riding on the back of technology developed for the 7E7, the 3.6m longer 747 Advanced could benefit from the fuel-saving engines on the new twin-jet, albeit in a variant with bleed air that has still to be developed. According to Boeing's calculations, the 747 Advanced would need 15 percent less kerosene per seat than a 747-400 and 14 percent less than an A380 over a distance of 11,000km. Till is critical of the way that the empty weight of its rival, the A380, has risen during development. “Compared with a 747-400, the A380 is about 57 percent heavier per seat.” According to Boeing, the trip cost of a 747 Advanced (450 passengers) will be 19 percent less than that of an A380 (542 passengers) over a 5,000km distance, and the seat mile costs will also be three percent better than those of its larger European rival, which is already designed for future growth.

New materials, such as aluminium alloys and composite materials, will make the 747 Advanced lighter, and its cockpit will resemble those of the 7E7 and 777, allowing standard pilot training as for a family of aircraft. The 747 Advanced will inherit the undercarriage, tyres and brakes of the 777, while its electronically wired (“e-enabled”) cabin with internet access over a satellite antenna will come from the 7E7.

The Boeing engineers have come up with an extra trump card for future versions of the 747: they propose to utilise the “attic” space that is currently wasted to the rear of the upper deck bulge, above the main deck. Here one could accommodate up to 40 “Sky Suites” or “Skybunks”. Passengers would be able to move to these triangular-shaped sitting and sleeping compartments from their normal seats in the main deck directly after take-off, climbing up a small, separate staircase in the rear cabin area. FLUG REVUE was allowed to visit a full-size cabin mock-up of the area. As an alternative to the hotel-room like, larger Sky Suites which were also presented, Boeing expects even greater customer interest for the somewhat more modest, but still very comfortable Skybunks.

The individual compartments, either curtained off or fitted with sliding doors, branch off on either side of a central aisle above the main deck, with sufficient headroom available for FLUG REVUE's 1.9m tall journalist to stand upright. Here one could sit either with one's feet up and watch television on a large screen or surf or work unobserved on a computer, or else one could sleep in a diagonal position on a full-length bed. It is not possible to install any windows in the Skybunks, as they are surrounded by countless airducts and cables. A separate lounge area with bar plus a spacious toilet in the “small upper deck” complete the comfortable optional extras available for a surcharge on the ticket price. Alternatively, storage areas for food trolleys or office compartments could be installed above the rear main deck.

The new fixtures would not alter the present bulge of the jumbo with its upper deck area, but Boeing has changed its layout. From the entrance in the main deck, passengers will now be able to climb to the upper deck via an imposing curved staircase. In this respect the 747 Advanced copies the impressive spaciousness of the A380 entrance. The Americans are also proposing to have a kind of porter's lodge by door two, which could be used as a sound-proof office cabin during the cruise if a concierge was no longer required after boarding. Finally, the new design package features LED lighting and reshaping of the cabins. In particular, the complicated cabling for in-flight entertainment and on-board internet access, which is relatively costly to retrofit, should get many airlines thinking about their next jumbo.

Whereas Boeing would like to stimulate demand for the new 747 through the gradual conversion into special freighters of today's large stock of around 1,400 jumbo jets, in Chicago they are also thinking about an entirely new Advanced Freighter. This would be stretched even further than the passenger version, by 5.1m, and would have a maximum take-off weight of 422 tonnes. With 130 tonnes of cargo on board, the Advanced Freighter would have a range of 8,260km. An extra four pallets could be accommodated in the main deck, with two extra containers and two pallets in the lower deck. According to Boeing, the engines, cockpit and materials for the product development study resemble the passenger version. Both Advanced jumbos would have a modified wing with reinforced structure, larger tanks and the raked wingtips which are already familiar from the 767-400. Provided that sufficient airline interest can be generated, the two new jumbo versions could be available by the end of the decade.

From page 28 of FLUG REVEU 9/2004

One pic shows the smaller upper deck, it looks just like this, but remind, it is from the Boeing 763-246C as shown on Aerospaceweb.org :

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/design/airliners/b763int.gif

fightingirish

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You remember Executive Decision starring Kurt Russel, Seven Seagal (only 20 mins :mad: ) and Halle Berry? There is a lot of space over the cabin.
It's time now for Boeing to use up that space!

fightingirish

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Interesting to see if Boeing will make it true.

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From Flight Daily News:

Surprise’ attic space helps 747 Advanced take shape

Boeing is revealing first details of dramatic interior changes to the 747 Advanced which, together with 7E7 engine technology, could provide the foundation for the launch of the first long-awaited stretch of the model, in around two years time.
The studies form key parts of the 747 Advanced project which is aimed at boosting seating to 450 and increasing range to 8,000nm (15,000km). This aims it squarely at what Boeing sees as a "200 seat gap" in the market between the competing Airbus A340-600 and A380-800, and provides today's 747 operators with a platform for future growth.

Although Boeing maintains that it has no interest in competing directly with the Airbus behemoth, having abandoned an earlier stretch study in 1997 dubbed the 747-600X, it admits that the emergence of the A380 is opening up a potential market opportunity.

"A lot of customers are not interested in moving up to the A380, and there are still a lot of people in a 'wait and see' mode," says Boeing product marketing director Brad Till. "We fundamentally see a much smaller market for an aircraft larger than the 747, and we don't see a business case for that makes sense for an all-new aircraft.

“But we think using the 7E7 technology provides a good approach. The market certainly is interested in a 400-450 seat aircraft, but we've got to make sure it makes sense. We think this does."

Although Boeing originally announced details of its initial 747 Advanced plans in 2003, the interior design plans represent a fresh initiative.

The new interior studies build on the innovative upper lobe crew rest designs created in recent years for the 777 and 747-400. Boeing is now extending these to create a series of 'Sky Suites' for passengers which could run for virtually the entire length of the stretched 747's main fuselage aft of the 'hump'.

Accommodation

Using previously unused space in the 'attic' area above the main deck cabin ceiling, the suites provide so much new accommodation space that it has shocked the study team. "We have amazed ourselves at what we've been able to do with the space," says Boeing interior configuration lead Richard Johnson.

By moving ducting and wiring aside, Boeing has created a series of suites connected by a passageway with a 1.88m (74in) tall stand-up space, reducing to 1.82m under frames. With individual, curtained off bunk spaces on either side of the passageway, the 'Pullman' railway coach-like atmosphere of the Sky Suites is reinforced with the creation of meeting rooms and rest areas.

Built over the 'monuments' or galleys on the main deck, the meeting room zones are wider and provide flat floor over a cross-section similar to that of the average regional jet.

Space is potentially available for 20-40 upper berths, depending on the size of the bunk cubicles and the number of meeting or business room suites. The favoured size appears to be 1.5m wide, though 1m and 2m wide units have been designed, says Johnson who adds various artificial lighting concepts are also being evaluated.

The spaces would be sold for premium prices to passengers who would occupy economy seats on the main deck by Door 4 for take-off and landing.

Further forward, Boeing has also conceived an entirely new upper deck stairway and entryway by Door 2 which creates a previously unknown feeling of spaciousness in the 747.

In place of the current fore and aft stairway on the port inner side of the main deck, the Advanced design incorporates an open atrium area with a wide, sweeping stairway on the starboard inner side. For the first time on the 747, the upper deck floor is opened up to the crown to enhance the 'openness' of the stairway area, with extra windows added to the upper deck window belt as well as additional 'skylight' windows added to the crown of the aircraft itself.

The passenger version of the Advanced would be stretched by inserting two plugs – a 2.03m stretch in the forward double-deck section and a 1.53m plug by the trailing edge of the wing. The stretched freighter would also have the same aft stretch, but would incorporate a slightly longer 3.56m stretch in the forward fuselage just aft of the hump.

These changes would take the overall length of the 747 Advanced Freighter to 75.8m against the 70.6m of the current model – making it the largest of the proposed derivative models should it get the go-ahead, possibly as early as 2006.

Added to the improved economics of the 7E7 engines, Boeing is confident the innovative Sky Suites concept, revised interior and other flight deck and aerodynamic modifications planned for the Advanced will make the new 747 an attractive option to carriers still needing growth but not ready to step up to the A380.

If the plan sells, airlines could be offering 'Sky Suites' from around 2010 onwards.”

A sweeping stairway to the upper deck is part of the interior design revamp.

http://www.flightdailynews.com/farnborough2004/07_19/images/airtransport/747b.jpg

fightingirish

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From the entrance in the main deck, passengers will now be able to climb to the upper deck via an imposing curved staircase. In this respect the 747 Advanced copies the impressive spaciousness of the A380 entrance.

With all due respect to the author, the original 747-100 and some 200's (depending on airline) had a sprial starcase leading to the upper deck. Level with the L2 and R2 doors.

So in a sense, the A380 is copying the 747-100 and Boeing just re-using it. LOL

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That plane will kill the ugly A380 - I hope

Yet Boeing is lying a bit. they are calculating the costs per seat. An A380 on the other hand offers a higher number of business and first class seats, so even if the seat is more expensive oer km, it will in the end make more profit.

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That plane will kill the ugly A380 - I hope

Yet Boeing is lying a bit. they are calculating the costs per seat. An A380 on the other hand offers a higher number of business and first class seats, so even if the seat is more expensive oer km, it will in the end make more profit.


Yes, but if you facter in the lower weight of a 747ADV it come out cheaper still.

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That plane will kill the ugly A380 - I hope

Yet Boeing is lying a bit. they are calculating the costs per seat. An A380 on the other hand offers a higher number of business and first class seats, so even if the seat is more expensive oer km, it will in the end make more profit.

The 747 is smaller as the A380, no direct competition.

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That plane will kill the ugly A380 - I hope

Yet Boeing is lying a bit. they are calculating the costs per seat. An A380 on the other hand offers a higher number of business and first class seats, so even if the seat is more expensive oer km, it will in the end make more profit.


What is this hate of the A380 about? What has the industry to win in "killing" an airplane . I don't really understand this point of view.

I never read an Airbus fan here wishing to "kill" boeing. It's not war mate , its all about business and technique.

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Yes, but if you facter in the lower weight of a 747ADV it come out cheaper still.

time will tell.
I bet my money on the A380

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time will tell.
I bet my money on the A380

ditto and if the bookies would accept it a £10 bet is on (all i can afford)

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Yes, but if you facter in the lower weight of a 747ADV it come out cheaper still.

Why so? The A380 can take more cargo and more business and first class passengers. So even if the seat per mile costs and the trip costs are lower for the B747, the revenues of the A380 are higher.

So in case the A380 will still make more profit.

( I hate the A380 because I think it is taking commercial aiviation the wrong way. I have no desire to be forced to fly in a 600+ passengers cattle transport - imho the B 7e7 is the way of the furutre. Smaller airliners and more point to point operations.)

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...The spaces would be sold for premium prices to passengers who would occupy economy seats on the main deck by Door 4 for take-off and landing...

This approach won't give the 747 more capacity though. It says that during takeoff/landing the passengers in the bunks will have to be seated in economy again. There they can be safely strapped in, and in case of an emergency can easily get to (emergency) exits.

All this does is add another bit of luxury to the 747 that will be available at a premium. Will this be available only to 1st class passengers?

What would the added weight be of this idea?

Just one idea though, what about moving all galleys, toilets etc to the attic. This would open some space in the main cabin where seats can be placed. That's another, what, 30 seats?

What about this little tidbit that seems to have ben sneaked in:

...Boeing is now extending these to create a series of 'Sky Suites' for passengers which could run for virtually the entire length of the stretched 747's main fuselage aft of the 'hump'...

Would they really stretch it? It has been proposed quite a few times before.

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This approach won't give the 747 more capacity though. It says that during takeoff/landing the passengers in the bunks will have to be seated in economy again. There they can be safely strapped in, and in case of an emergency can easily get to (emergency) exits.

All this does is add another bit of luxury to the 747 that will be available at a premium. Will this be available only to 1st class passengers?

What would the added weight be of this idea?

Just one idea though, what about moving all galleys, toilets etc to the attic. This would open some space in the main cabin where seats can be placed. That's another, what, 30 seats?

What about this little tidbit that seems to have ben sneaked in:

Would they really stretch it? It has been proposed quite a few times before.


Peter, the extra capacity would come from the fuselage stretch.

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Peter, the extra capacity would come from the fuselage stretch.

Sounds obvious enough! I've had a looooong day and an even longer week (kind a obvious as well come to think of it :))!