A vs B - 2005 'Battle for the Skies'

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New plane lifts Boeing in contest for top seller Airbus countering 787 with big push for its new A350 By Michael Oneal Tribune staff reporter Published May 27, 2005 subscriber link John Leahy, the indefatigable chief commercial officer of Airbus SAS, wasn't about to let a burst appendix prevent him from closing a crucial airplane deal. His malady--"No doubt brought on by Boeing," he quipped recently--required emergency surgery. Yet even from his sickbed, Leahy managed to help negotiate last week's deal to pump a $250 million loan into the US Airways-America West merger in return for a promise from the executives involved to help launch Airbus' newest plane--the A350. "There are always cell phones," he said. As the aerospace industry prepares for June's lavish Paris Air Show, the competition between Chicago-based Boeing Co. and Airbus has never been keener. After watching Airbus soar to the industry lead in terms of commercial jet orders and deliveries in 2003, Boeing has cranked up its sales machine and is leading a spirited recovery that is putting enormous pressure on Airbus. Both companies are taking more risk, pricing more aggressively and doling out more concessions to customers to win business, sources say. And this year Boeing is winning. It has collected 243 firm orders for its airplanes, led by its newest model--the 787 Dreamliner. Through April (the latest numbers available), Airbus had garnered only 145 contracts and is struggling to launch the A350, its 787 competitor. Boeing this week converted commitments for 20 737s into firm orders from the leasing arm of Singapore Airlines. And Indonesian budget carrier Lion Air announced plans to buy 60 737s for $3.9 billion to replace its aging fleet of small, narrow-body jets. Those conquests come on top of critical recent wins at Northwest Airlines, Air Canada and Air India, among others. "Boeing appears to be on a roll," said George Hamlin, a former Airbus marketing executive and now a consultant with MergeGlobal Inc. By the end of this year, Airbus almost certainly will have delivered more airplanes, based on past orders, analysts said. But benefiting from the recent momentum for the 787, "Boeing will probably be ahead by a comfortable margin" in terms of new orders, said industry consultant Richard Aboulafia of the Teal Group. Joseph Campbell, an industry analyst at Lehman Bros., thinks Boeing's rebound will bring the industry closer to the 50-50 parity that most experts believe is where things should settle out once the two manufacturers begin to deliver all the new airplanes they are selling. "An invigorated Boeing sales team with a new airplane to sell is working hard to regain market share lost to Airbus," he told clients recently.
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I will be watching this one VERY CAREFULLY INDEED. Usual suspects, be warned!!! Grey Area Moderator
Profile picture for user LFC24

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The A350 is gonna be a huge failure compared to the 787.
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The A350 is gonna be a huge failure compared to the 787.
Why?
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Well the 787 already seems like it's going to be a success judging by it's orders etc. The A350.. well, I dunno what to say about it really. I can't say for sure it will be a failure but I definitely think it doesn't match up to the 787.
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Well the 787 already seems like it's going to be a success judging by it's orders etc. The A350.. well, I dunno what to say about it really. I can't say for sure it will be a failure but I definitely think it doesn't match up to the 787.
If Leahy's antics have shown us anything, its that he can sell ice to eskimos.
Profile picture for user MANAIRPORTMAD!!

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Well the 787 already seems like it's going to be a success judging by it's orders etc. The A350.. well, I dunno what to say about it really. I can't say for sure it will be a failure but I definitely think it doesn't match up to the 787.
I agree, this A350 looks like it's gonna be a version of Boeing's 717 - (Selling wise)
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I think that the battle for the skies is more beyond 2005..Its about strategy and what "A" and "B" think is going to be the future of air travel..is going to be hub-hub or P2P travel? i tend to agree with Boeing here that people of the future would rather travel straight to the destination of their desire rather then change aircraft..I can attest to that myself..Both airbus and boeing have aircraft that can accomodate this principle of P2P travel however i feel that the best combination for such a system would be with the 787 and 777 families of aircraft over the a340 and a350 aircraft...The a380 is a whole another ball game..Will it capture the market and be a whole success..i heavily doubt that it would be..but then again it would be a moderate success just like many of us polled it to be..It is point to point travel that is the new buzword and that is why we are seeing an increase in the 777 sales as well as the overwhelming demand to the effecient 787..
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I agree, this A350 looks like it's gonna be a version of Boeing's 717 - (Selling wise)
...[related]... Emirates to trade up to new twins Flight International 24th - 30th May 2005 Dubai carrier closes in on deals to swap out parts of existing Airbus and Boeing fleets for A350s and 777-200LRs Emirates is in negotiations with Airbus and Boeing about a complex, multi-billion dollar deal for A350s and 777-200LRs, which would involve trade-in deals for the carrier’s existing A340-500s and older 777s. The massive deal, which is expected to include up to 50 A350s, also forms part of a huge raft of sales for the new twinjet that Airbus expects to unveil at next month’s Paris air show. Airbus chief commercial officer John Leahy is confidently predicting that he will announce “triple digit orders” for the A350 at next month’s Paris air show. “It will be at least 100, maybe substantially more than that,” he says, adding that deals will be signed with at least “four customers”. Although Airbus declines to specify the identity of A350 customers, according to industry sources the Emirates contract will form the major portion of the sales. It could involve a complex contra-deal whereby Airbus, or an agent of the manufacturer, would take Boeing 777-200ERs in part exchange. The rapidly expanding Dubai-based carrier is also known to be discussing a similar arrangement with Boeing under which its A340-500s would be exchanged for an order for the -500’s ultra-long- range rival, the 777-200LR. Leahy denies that Airbus would have any interest in following Boeing’s policy of negotiating part-exchange deals that involve the trade-in of rival equipment. Another airline to sign up will be US Airways, which has obtained a $250 million incentive loan from Airbus in exchange for a commitment to acquire up to 20 A350s for delivery from 2011 to 2013. The financially troubled carrier confirmed that it will be an A350 launch customer last week when it finalised its merger with America West. It holds outstanding orders for 10 A330-200s, which are believed to have been dropped as part of the deal, and the airline has deferred delivery of its remaining A320 orders (see story below). Two lessors are also expected to sign up for the A350 at Paris – GE Capital Aviation Services and International Lease Finance. Although disappointed by recent A350 campaign losses to the 787 at Air Canada and Northwest Airlines, Leahy believes the door could still be open in other contests that appear to have swung Boeing’s way, including the multi-million dollar 777/787 selection by Air India. Airbus is writing an official letter to the Indian carrier seeking a review of the Boeing deal on the grounds that the A350 was excluded from the original evaluation. GUY NORRIS/LOS ANGELES & MAX KINGSLEY-JONES/LONDON
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What would Airbus do without Emirates...
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What would Airbus do without Emirates...
Quite alot still, there are still numerous airlines that have orders for Airbus planes wheter it be short haul or long haul so one airline won't have made any difference to how Airbus are financially operating. I know EK have 43/45 A380's/(F)'s on order but even if EK had never operated the A330/340, I still think they would have placed the A380 order anyway.
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I agree, this A350 looks like it's gonna be a version of Boeing's 717 - (Selling wise)
I think you're wrong. If you're an all out Airbus customer it might be interesting to add an airplane who will benefit from fleet commonality with other Airbuses. The cockpit design and function are virtually the same making it a small step to move pilots from A320/A330-or whatever to A350. Boeing 717 was much more of an odd bird. Although a pretty beutiful one.
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I think you're wrong. If you're an all out Airbus customer it might be interesting to add an airplane who will benefit from fleet commonality with other Airbuses. The cockpit design and function are virtually the same making it a small step to move pilots from A320/A330-or whatever to A350. Boeing 717 was much more of an odd bird. Although a pretty beutiful one.
and you're wrong too. So far it would seem the A350 will not have much fleet commonality and may require a larger type rating training program than say from the A320 to A340. Also, if that were such a big case... why did AC and NW go for the 787 over the A350?
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and you're wrong too.
- I did not say that my opinion was the pure truth in this matter. Did you notice that little piece of word called 'think' in 'I think you're wrong"? I used it just to clarify that I had a different opinion. Otherwise I might have been considered as an arrogant self confident person.
So far it would seem the A350 will not have much fleet commonality and may require a larger type rating training program than say from the A320 to A340.
- So what about moving on from A330 to A350 then? Do you propose that it's a greater step from A330 to A350 than from 717 to 737? In that case I would love to hear your comments.
Also, if that were such a big case... why did AC and NW go for the 787 over the A350?
- I was talking about the big picture. Your'e giving one example of a carrier not choosing to go for an Airbus when they had several other airbuses in their fleet. Besides, fleet commonality is just one aspect of buying new aeroplanes - there are others; price being the most obvious one. But what I did mean was that fleet commonality is one of the important aspects to take into consideration when buying airplanes. And the B717 lacks that when compared to A350.
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upon evaluation I can see how my reply to you may have seemed a little forcefull or arrogant. My apologies that wasn't my intention. As to the commonality... all I know is what I've read in various new articles about the Leahy interview in which he was confident, almost to the point of arrogance, that Airbus will announce many orders for the A350. It was noted the A350 might not share all that much commonality with the A330, thus the commonality argument, which lets face it is all the a350 realy has going for it right now, is mooted.
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upon evaluation I can see how my reply to you may have seemed a little forcefull or arrogant. My apologies that wasn't my intention.
- No hard feelings mate!
As to the commonality... all I know is what I've read in various new articles about the Leahy interview in which he was confident, almost to the point of arrogance, that Airbus will announce many orders for the A350.
- Much of what Leahy says is marketing bs. regards, Cliff
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- Much of what Leahy says is marketing bs. regards, Cliff
agreed!
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I think you're wrong. If you're an all out Airbus customer it might be interesting to add an airplane who will benefit from fleet commonality with other Airbuses. The cockpit design and function are virtually the same making it a small step to move pilots from A320/A330-or whatever to A350.
Too many people think this is a huge advantage, I agree it is an advantage but only a very small one. Not large enough to decide on an aircraft to purchase or lease. I have spoken to many management types who decide on future aircraft and it really doesn't have much input into the decision of adding more/new aircraft too a fleet. ;)
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Too many people think this is a huge advantage, I agree it is an advantage but only a very small one. Not large enough to decide on an aircraft to purchase or lease. I have spoken to many management types who decide on future aircraft and it really doesn't have much input into the decision of adding more/new aircraft too a fleet. ;)
Thats been my argument since the day I joined this forum. Its marketing PR. Something a lot of fans have swallowed and taken to heart.
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Too many people think this is a huge advantage, I agree it is an advantage but only a very small one. Not large enough to decide on an aircraft to purchase or lease. I have spoken to many management types who decide on future aircraft and it really doesn't have much input into the decision of adding more/new aircraft too a fleet. ;)
- I believe it depens upon which carrier we are speaking of. Some carriers, preferably low fare carriers, needs to lower all the cost they can. For these fleet commonality means a lot while for the more exclusive carriers it doesn't really matter. For comparison; check out SAS fleet versus Ryan Air to get my point. regards, Cliff
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Thats been my argument since the day I joined this forum. Its marketing PR. Something a lot of fans have swallowed and taken to heart.
Who are you trying to kid, Sandy? You're far and away the biggest Fanboy on this Forum!!! :D:D:D:D