747 advanced

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Geoffrey Thomas October 01, 2004 The Australian BOEING plans a radical interior makeover of its 747 that will include sky-suites in the overhead ceiling space, much larger windows and a sweeping staircase to the upper deck. Adding punch to the aircraft's performance, Boeing will fit the radical 7E7 engines and stretch the aircraft by 3.6m to increase passenger capacity to 450 from the current typical international configuration of 416. The new version, known as the 747 Advanced, will have increased range, enabling it to fly from Sydney to Chicago or from Dallas-Fort Worth to Sydney. The 747ADV is in many ways a meld of three different aircraft. It takes some of the new technology from the 7E7 and combines this with many of the proved systems from the 777 to update the classic 747 design, considered by many to be one of the best aircraft ever built. Boeing's pitch to airlines is that the A380 is too big for many routes such as Brisbane-Los Angeles and for off-peak times to destinations such as Hong Kong. The new 747 model with 450 seats would fit neatly between the A380 with 550 seats and the 777-300ER and the A340-600 with about 350 seats. Asia-Pacific airlines are the major target for the new variant, with Cathay Pacific and possibly Qantas as launch customers. Cathay Pacific, like Japan Airlines and British Airways, has so far resisted the move to the A380 even though it operates two 747-400s a night to London from Hong Kong. Cathay, rather than buy A380s, recently signed up for eight used 747-400s from Singapore Airlines and South African Airways. Qantas has also been searching for used 747-400s but was unable to acquire aircraft at a price to support the business plan. In fact, the market for 747s has become very tight -- Boeing Trading only has one used 747 available. Qantas is now looking at other options and is being courted by Boeing with new aircraft offerings. From the passenger perspective, the 747ADV will seem like a new aircraft with a 777-styled interior, up to 40 sky-suites and a business centre in the crown of the ceiling. The sky-suites may be used by premium economy class passengers, as most airlines already offer lie-flat beds for business and first class passengers. Access to the upper deck has been moved to the far side of the cabin as you enter and is up a sweeping staircase with windows in the ceiling giving a spacious skylight effect. Boeing may also include 7E7-style windows -- which are almost twice the size of 747 windows -- to the 747ADV, to give an even greater sense of spaciousness. The latest generation 7E7 engines will make the 747ADV the quietest aircraft in its class. It will meet all new and proposed airport noise restrictions -- a major benefit when operating into noise-sensitive airports such as Sydney. Boeing is also tweaking the aerodynamics of the wing to make the 747ADV slightly faster than the 747, already the world's fastest large-capacity commercial aircraft. It is expected that the 747ADV will be committed to production early next year with the first flight scheduled for 2009 and entry into service a year later.
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Profile picture for user seahawk

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Interesting. First of all it is interesting to see that they are going to fit the 7E7 engines to the 747. If I remember correctly did Boeing not caim that fitting such engines to an old airframe woud be impossible in regards to a possible Airbus update of the A330 to compete with the 7E7 ?? It also shows that even Boeing must see a market for large airliners in the future. Overall new 747s are always good news.

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Not new I think we have discuss this 1 month ago But its funny Boeing say many times there is no market for big aircrafts and after the A380 get more and more orders they want make now a new B747
Profile picture for user Bmused55

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Not new I think we have discuss this 1 month ago But its funny Boeing say many times there is no market for big aircrafts and after the A380 get more and more orders they want make now a new B747
Boeing feel there is not enough market to make a direct competitor, IE another 550 seat plane.. but need for something to plug the gap between 350 seats and 550 seats. This is where the 747adv will come in. It has been said time and time again, the 747adv will not be a direct competitor to the A380. It'll be a niche aircraft if anything.

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Has British Airways ever expressed an interest in the A380 or the A345/346 aircraft, or is it going to work the 744's a little longer and utilise the 777 on medium density routes?
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Has British Airways ever expressed an interest in the A380 or the A345/346 aircraft, or is it going to work the 744's a little longer and utilise the 777 on medium density routes?
Currently, BA love their 744's and 777s. I don't see any reason to replace them just yet. I think that BA could well be a contender for both thew 777-300 and the 747 ADV
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I reckon it will al swing in the balance over the 767 replacement, either 7E7 or A350. From that decision they will then probably make a Long Haul fleet decision, either more Boeing or go Airbus.

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Has British Airways ever expressed an interest in the A380 or the A345/346 aircraft, or is it going to work the 744's a little longer and utilise the 777 on medium density routes?
Maybe, BA are the right airline for the A380 @bmused: I dont say its a competion
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I reckon it will al swing in the balance over the 767 replacement, either 7E7 or A350. From that decision they will then probably make a Long Haul fleet decision, either more Boeing or go Airbus.
Surely if BA were in the position to replace their 747-400s, the ADV version would be sensible. They have the infrastructure there to support it. No doubt RR could provide an engine for it, and BA love the economics of the 747 as it is.
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Contenders power up for 747 fight Flight International 12 Oct 2004 Engine manufacturers begin preparations to meet Boeing proposal for new Advanced derivative of widebody The competition to power Boeing's proposed 747 Advanced derivative is starting amid signs that using unchanged baseline 7E7 engines will not be possible, and that the General Electric/Pratt & Whitney Engine Alliance may enter the fray. In addition, the relatively restricted market potential of the new derivative, added to the cost of developing a refanned version of an existing or planned powerplant, indicate a winner-takes-all competition. Boeing says "no decision has been made on how many suppliers" will be selected and says it is "still studying several configuration options. We are not ruling out refanning 7E7 engines for a better match." It adds it therefore does not "rule out a minor derivative" version of the GEnx or Trent 1000 7E7 engines now in development, or possible proposals from "P&W or the Engine Alliance". Engine Alliance president Lloyd Thompson says: "We are supporting those studies and are ready, willing and able to propose the [GP7200] engine on whatever Boeing is ready to do." The Alliance, which was formed for Boeing's major stretch attempt on the 747 in the mid-1990s, then designated -500X/600X, says its original mission statement "is good as long as it is a four-engined aircraft with more than 450 seats. The proposed 747 variant meets these qualifications." P&W says the technology developed for its PW-EXX 7E7 bid "continues to be spread across the product line and we continue to have ongoing discussions with Boeing about new aircraft programmes." The main contenders are still believed to be GE and Rolls-Royce, both of which are studying refanned 7E7 engine variants to reduce fan diameter from 2.79-2.84m (110-112in) to around 2.56-2.64m. The reduction is required after analysis revealed continuing configuration issues with the outboard engine at the 7E7 fan diameter because of interference drag and potential aeroelastic effects. Boeing plans to brief airlines on the new 747 derivative in Hong Kong later this month. GUY NORRIS / LOS ANGELES
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thats closer than boeing have ever gotten to the 747ADV so far.
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Boeing called on to commit to 747 stretched derivative Flight International 7-Dec-2004 Leading operators press manufacturer to make up its mind on variant by early 2005 Boeing is under pressure from leading 747 operators to decide whether it is going to commit to a stretched derivative of its largest aircraft, which could see it firm up its 747 Advanced plans early next year. Boeing has long been proposing a two-model 747 Advanced family - a 450-passenger version and similarly sized freighter - incorporating 7E7 technology, such as its new engines. The passenger version would have a range of 14,800km (8,000nm). Boeing vice-president for marketing Randy Baseler says that the hurry-up message came from a meeting in Hong Kong during October with "around 12" of the top 747 operators. "They are pressing us to commit to doing the stretch, as they want to move on with their fleet planning," says Baseler. "They told us we need to make our mind up by early next year." Baseler is unsure what sort of initial launch commitment will be required to keep Boeing's customers happy, but a programme launch next year would enable an entry into service "sometime in 2009". He says "the greater pressure is for the passenger version". Boeing aims to develop the 747 to fill the perceived "200-seat gap" between the 350-seat class A340-600/777-300ER and the 550-seat A380. Baseler concedes that if the 747 Advanced does not go ahead, it could hand some of the 400 passenger and freighter sales it forecasts in the 400-500 seat category over the next 20 years to its rival. Some of the airlines attending the Hong Kong conference are already A380 customers, says Baseler, and if there is no 450-seat 747 offering, A380s could be ordered and "mis-used" to fill the gap. Alternatively airlines could acquire more 350-seaters and increase frequencies. MAX KINGSLEY-JONES / LONDON
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This project is the one with major risk. Boeing are going to study long and hard before deciding whether or not to go through with this. Obviously, customers telling them to make a decision is positive as it shows there is interest. But will there be enough to sell the 747 in the numbers required to break even of go into profit for such a project? Who knows.
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I think they must go ahead with this project. Imho if they decide against it some airlines will be in the AIrbus camp quickly and that might not ne limited to the heavies but also to the decision between the 787 and the A350. On the other hand it must be asked how much improvement you still can squezze out of the 747 airframe, without doing a practical new design.
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Hmmmm - a good point. Like the B737, I think that Boeing have pushed the B747 design about as far as they can. To be honest, I think we can say the same about the B767 and B777. (B777-400 anyone? ;) ) Maybe it would make sense to offer an "Advanced" B747 as an out-and-out cargo aircraft and concentrate on offering the 7E7 as the passenger type?
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747 Advanced Boeing is now working with airlines to create a new 747 which will use same engine and cockpit technology as the 7E7 . The new 747 will be quieter, more economical and environmentally friendly. It will be capable of carrying up to 500 passengers in a 3-class configuration and fly over 8,000-nautical-miles (14,816 km) at .86 Mach. Background When the Airbus A380 was formally launched in 2000, Boeing dusted off its 747-X studies in a bid to thwart sales of the Airbus competitor. But once again airlines weren't interested, and Boeing cancelled the program in 2001 after no orders were forthcoming, and devoted its energies to the ill-fated Sonic Cruiser. Some of the ideas developed for the 747-X did however make it into production in the 747-400ER. Despite Boeing's claims that the A380 can never be profitable, Airbus have already sold over 120 of the giant aircraft. Previously loyal 747 customers such as Qantas, Virgin Atlantic and Singapore Airlines have all ordered the A380, and sales of the passenger 747 have dwindled to almost nothing—the vast majority of 747s made now are freighters. Boeing has promised that it will always be ready to produce larger, more advanced versions of the 747 when the market for such a plane develops, but industry analysts are already predicting the end for the 35-year old giant. Nonetheless, in early 2004, Boeing rolled out tentative plans for what it calls the 747-Advanced. As the first A380 prototypes edged ever closer to their first flight, this was clearly evidence that the company was still prepared to mount a challenge to Airbus. Essentially another "recycle" of 747-X plan, the stretched 747A intends to use technology from the 7E7 Dreamliner to bring the 747 into the new millennium. Time will tell, if Boeing manages to get this "paper airplane" into production. LINK
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...[update]... Excerpt from "Crystal gazing" in Flight International - 4 Jan 2005
Meanwhile, several key 747 operators have warned Boeing it needs to decide sooner rather than later whether it will stay in the large aircraft game in the long term. The company concedes it will probably have to respond quickly to customer pressure and make some sort of commitment to the proposed 450-seat 747 Advanced or risk losing even more ground to the A380, orders for which are approaching the 150 mark.
Also, listed in a graph titled "Milestone Events in 2005" was the following... April: Boeing 747 Advanced decision :cool:
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Hmmm...... my back is aching a bit. Maybe the canteen at Boeing Seattle will be painted blue?
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Sorry, not really sure where you're going with that comment... :confused:
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Stonecipher drives 747 counter-attack Flight International 25 Jan 2005 Boeing boss wants board approval to offer A380 spoiler The Boeing board is expected to decide this week whether to grant authority to offer the 747 Advanced after company president and chief executive Harry Stonecipher personally backed the plan. Stonecipher is understood to have taken the eleventh-hour decision to seek board approval within 48h of the Airbus A380 roll-out, and made the move following calls from 747 operators for Boeing to make a firm go/no-go commitment to the stretched double-derivative programme (Flight International, 7-13 December 2004). He also signalled renewed interest in the 747-400X at the company's annual leadership meeting in Palm Springs, California. The decision, if approved, would take the 747 Advanced beyond any previous stretch proposals. The latest plan, which now appears more realistic than the 747-500X/600X effort shelved in the mid-1990s, is also likely to be Boeing's last opportunity to sustain the famous product through the rest of the decade. A leading launch candidate for the freighter version is Cargolux, which has been given formal presentations, while Cathay Pacific Airways is believed to have expressed interest in the 450-seat stretch. Other candidates historically linked to the project, British Airways and Lufthansa (for the freighter version), are said to have backed off from being involved as potential launch customers. Boeing declines to comment on any board decision, but says it is "still in detailed discussions with the customers". The aircraft is aimed at a relatively small "200-seat gap" market niche between the 350-seat Airbus A340-600/Boeing 777-300ER and the 555-seat A380. Boeing predicts there could be 400-500 sales in this category over the next 20 years and recently admitted these could be lost to the A380. If Boeing is to offer the stretch, the programme could be formally launched by the end of the year. With this timescale, Boeing will be expected to go for first flight in 2008 for entry-into-service late in 2009. A key element will be the willingness of General Electric and Rolls-Royce to develop versions of the 7E7 engines, the GEnx and Trent 1000, respectively. The passenger version will be a stretched variant of the -400ER with a 2.03m (6.6ft) -long plug insert in the double deck forward Section 42 and a 1.53m plug close to the wing trailing edge, increasing length to 74.2m compared with 70.6m for the -400ER production model. The freighter will also be stretched in the same mid-to-aft fuselage position as the passenger model, and incorporate a 3.56m stretch forward of the wing-body join. GUY NORRIS / LOS ANGELES