747 advanced

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20 years 5 months

Posts: 10,625

Its not realy a strike back is it?
The 747ADV will not, well.. cannot compete with the A380 one on one.

However as the only choice for more seat that a 747 is the A380... perhaps the 747ADV can win some order from airlines who need a few more seats but for whom the A380 is just too big.
IMO, thats the only way the 747ADV could compete head to head... by taking orders that airlines would have placed for the A380 due to no alternative being available.

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20 years 5 months

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Poor choice of words from the reporter.

The 747ADV is more of a gap filler. Taking on the gap between the 744 and the A380.
There will be airlines that need extra seats but find the A380 too big. Thats what the 747ADV is aimed at I beleive.

The title of this article makes it sound like it'll be a true competitor.

Member for

19 years 6 months

Posts: 1,583

Should Boeing decide to move forward with this project, how many airframes would have to be sold in order to reach a break even point? The reason why I ask is that I've only heard of a couple of airlines have expressed any real interest in this aircraft.

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 10,625

Should Boeing decide to move forward with this project, how many airframes would have to be sold in order to reach a break even point? The reason why I ask is that I've only heard of a couple of airlines have expressed any real interest in this aircraft.

I think they should. There is certainly enough interest. BA, CX, JAL and ANA have all suggested they would be interested in a slight seat increase for the 747

The break even point for the 747ADV would probably be very low as they will be using 787 technology which will reduce the cost of R&D.

Think of the case for the 777-200LR. Its an incremental betterment of an existing design.. Boeing will quickly recover the costs of the minimal R&D costs.

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20 years 10 months

Posts: 9,401

Looks like a very exciting few years for the aviation industry coming up,

A380,A350,787,747ADV, as well as more and more of the Embraer 170 series, and the new Bombadier C series.

Cant wait :)

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 4,202

At the moment the 747ADV is just a well done FUD campaign by Boeing. With a press releases like that, they want to put pressure on Airbus. They probably hope that Airbus will make a too early first flight or encounter serious problems with the A380, then they will launch the 747ADV as the safer alternative to the A380.
If the A380 meets the promises made by Airbus (I would not bet on that), then Boeing will most likely never launch the 747ADV.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 2,956

Stretching it a mere 3.6 metres doesn't seem like very much at all. If you're going to go through the trouble of stretching it, why not stretch it a little more? Also, is it pretty safe to assume that the Advanced will be fly-by-wire?

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 10,625

At the moment the 747ADV is just a well done FUD campaign by Boeing. With a press releases like that, they want to put pressure on Airbus. They probably hope that Airbus will make a too early first flight or encounter serious problems with the A380, then they will launch the 747ADV as the safer alternative to the A380.
If the A380 meets the promises made by Airbus (I would not bet on that), then Boeing will most likely never launch the 747ADV.

Touching on the safety side of what you said, Airbus are the only one out of the two to ever loose a prototype.

Not that that makes them any less safe I hasten to add!!!

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 10,625

Stretching it a mere 3.6 metres doesn't seem like very much at all. If you're going to go through the trouble of stretching it, why not stretch it a little more? Also, is it pretty safe to assume that the Advanced will be fly-by-wire?

FBW would certainly be a possibility. It would help reduce its weight that little bit more.

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20 years 5 months

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Would it? I think not, not only would it push R&D costs upwards (it's not as simple as taking the B777 system and modifying it slightly), you would loose commonality with the B747-400!

Good point.

It still is a possibility, regardless how remote.

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24 years 2 months

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Would it? I think not, not only would it push R&D costs upwards (it's not as simple as taking the B777 system and modifying it slightly), you would loose commonality with the B747-400!
It would, but if it's going to be 'advanced' with a new wing and whatnot, why not go all out? I think it would attract more customers. Why would they want to make something new with old technology? Why do you think there were so few customers for the 744ER?

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 10,625

It would, but if it's going to be 'advanced' with a new wing and whatnot, why not go all out? I think it would attract more customers. Why would they want to make something new with old technology? Why do you think there were so few customers for the 744ER?

The 744ER, like the 767-400, was more of a customer request. The customer that asked for it, bought it. It required relatively little R&D.

However, it would not make sense to go "all out" and complete revamp the 747 for an airframe that might not sell more than 200 copies.

The idea is to add range, seats and plug the gap between the 744 and A380.
Modified wing, new engines and the fuse plugs will do just fine. there is more to it obviously, I'm just simplifying.

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 2,956

The 744ER, like the 767-400, was more of a customer request. The customer that asked for it, bought it. It required relatively little R&D.
This true.

However, it would not make sense to go "all out" and complete revamp the 747 for an airframe that might not sell more than 200 copies.

The idea is to add range, seats and plug the gap between the 744 and A380.
Modified wing, new engines and the fuse plugs will do just fine. there is more to it obviously, I'm just simplifying.

Perhaps.

Member for

20 years 10 months

Posts: 853

The 747ADV is more of a gap filler. Taking on the gap between the 744 and the A380.

I see it as helping to keep the Boeing product line filled out from top to bottom...(passenger capacity)...

737NG = 110 to 190
787 = 225 to 300
777 = 305 to 400
747ADV = 450

:cool:

Member for

19 years 6 months

Posts: 1,583

FBW would certainly be a possibility. It would help reduce its weight that little bit more.

In this day and age, I think FBW would be a necessity. Many airlines would wonder what Boeing was doing if they were to design the 747ADV with regular old fashion flight controls.

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19 years 10 months

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Cargo version of 747ADV could launch first

ATW Daily News
Cargo version of 747ADV could launch first
Wednesday April 20, 2005

Sources in Chicago told ATWOnline that Boeing possibly may launch the 747ADV without a passenger version at this stage.VP-Marketing VP Randy Baseler would not comment specifically on the model's launch criteria but told this website that he is "positive on a launch." He said Boeing would like to have a passenger version commitment but would not elaborate further on whether it would launch with cargo-only operators.

Airlines have been pressing the manufacturer to commit to the derivative, but some are coy on committing hard cash to the project just yet.

by Geoffrey Thomas


Source: http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=773

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20 years 10 months

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launch with cargo-only operators

Would that be a first? :confused:

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 2,228

Boeing will have to sweet-talk the FAA first........I remember reading in Flight I think it was that the FAA categorically refused to sign off any further expansions of the 747 airframe after the 744. I think they are right to do this as the design is soo old, but I also think they are wrong to do this because the designs needed to get this through statically are basically ALL new (well they'd need to be, the centre box would just be one solid mass of metal-on-metal plates otherwise!)

As someone has previously said...you didnt expect Boeing to take the A380 lieing down did you?......honestly??

JAL and ANA are interested in some are they?? I wonder what workshare Japan will get off of THIS project??? considering that Japan is making the fully equipped wing for the 787.........I am sure there would be 'benefits' to the country...........

And lets not talk about loans.........Airbus/EADS is as bad as Boeing when it comes to loans or startup grants or WHATEVER.

Whats the point in re-working bleedless engines so that the archaic airframes they get fitted to can work? it just sounds like hassle which of course equals cost.

looks like lots of wing work with those new winglets too. (did you know that the weight of the A380F is only 7% greater than that of the Pax version but the wings need to be looked at again completely, from start to finish, the freighter version may need a whole new wing compared to that of the pax, the plan being that eventually the pax will receive the freighter wing so that the protected AUW of 620 tons can be reached for both pax and freighter. Initially AUW's will be different and lower than this figure).

But then boeing engineers believe greatly in their black boxes, which can speed up design, and also hide errors (btw black boxes provide many opportunities for errors to be made by the engineer......as my colleagues have been proving to me this week :( )

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 2,956

Boeing will have to sweet-talk the FAA first........I remember reading in Flight I think it was that the FAA categorically refused to sign off any further expansions of the 747 airframe after the 744. I think they are right to do this as the design is soo old, but I also think they are wrong to do this because the designs needed to get this through statically are basically ALL new (well they'd need to be, the centre box would just be one solid mass of metal-on-metal plates otherwise!)
Well, if you think about it, the A330/340 is based on the A300 which is almost as old the 747. With enough modifications, the 747ADV will be nothing like the original version. Heck, even the 744 is miles ahead of the original 100 series.

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 4,333

Do you think that Boeing would adopt the fly-by-wire system on this "new" 747?