I'm gonna cry........

Profile picture for user DME

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15 years 3 months

Posts: 862

I've been looking into the Department of Transports website. It shows what would disqualify you from getting an airside pass. One of the issues is Assault, of which I was admonished of back in 1999.

I don't know if they class an admonishment as a conviction, if they do then I'm stuffed.

I can go airside at the moment with my PPL.

If an airline employ me and I can't get an airside pass then I doubt the airline will keep me on..... Can't fly much from the perimeter fence :(

If this ends my dreams, then I wonder if I can go and be an Instructor part time? Hopefully it should be O.K. as I already go airside when at the club.

It seems a stupid rule, I can get my CPL fly my pax, charge them, instruct them, go airside but as soon as I get my ATPL I can't go Airside if I want to fly an Airline.

If I can go airside now, what difference does it make if I work for an Airline :confused:

A definition of Admonished;

to tell someone that they have done something wrong.

Does that sound like a conviction or a slap on the wrist......

dme

Original post
Profile picture for user martin_EGTK

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16 years 8 months

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Only one why to find out, contact Disclosure Scotland, they are the one's that will approve you for your airside pass. Fingers crossed for you mate.

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15 years 1 month

Posts: 325

DME - as Martin says contact Disclosure Scotland.
From memory, a conviction within the 5 years previous to you applying for an airside ID pass will prevent you from getting an airside ID - after 5 years I believe it is viewed to have lapsed.

Profile picture for user DME

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15 years 3 months

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I'm scratching my head here. I got a letter from Disclosure Scotland back in January, the 'conviction' was on it. I'm having trouble understanding if the Dft will class it as spent after 5 years, or it they will always keep it as a disqualification from going airside?

Murder is on it, so I think if it's on the disqualification list then no airside pass can be issued, even if the 5 years have passed.

dme

Profile picture for user rdc1000

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19 years 11 months

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Shouldn't have been naughty in the first place! :dev2: Then you wouldn't have this concern.

Profile picture for user DME

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15 years 3 months

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Hind sight and all......................

dme

Profile picture for user Mark L

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Highly likely it would show on all the paperwork even if it was an admonishment (what a silly word) it sounds to me like your sitting between two situations: whether in "their" eyes you have a criminal conviction or not. To me (a totally non qualified legal person in every way) it would appear that you have a good chance of being able to persuade them to view the admonishment as not a criminal conviction, as there appears to be much ambiguity over it.

However as others have said the only way to do this is to speak to the people involved, and argue your case. Be prepared to spend a good few hours explaining your situation to people over and over again, its more than likely you will be able to persuade some department within "Disclosure Scotland" that your admonishment is not a criminal conviction.

If the answer you recieve at first isnt the one you want to hear, keep trying and dont take it lying down!

Profile picture for user DME

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15 years 3 months

Posts: 862

Highly likely it would show on all the paperwork even if it was an admonishment (what a silly word) it sounds to me like your sitting between two situations: whether in "their" eyes you have a criminal conviction or not. To me (a totally non qualified legal person in every way) it would appear that you have a good chance of being able to persuade them to view the admonishment as not a criminal conviction, as there appears to be much ambiguity over it.

However as others have said the only way to do this is to speak to the people involved, and argue your case. Be prepared to spend a good few hours explaining your situation to people over and over again, its more than likely you will be able to persuade some department within "Disclosure Scotland" that your admonishment is not a criminal conviction.

If the answer you recieve at first isnt the one you want to hear, keep trying and dont take it lying down!

That's the thing, if I do get an airside pass after months of trying most airlines will have went on to hire another pilot...........

dme

Profile picture for user Mark L

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16 years 8 months

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LOL I dont mean wait until you've made your application, speak to them now, get them to confirm their position, and if its good get them to put it in writing so its no longer an issue. If its bad then you've got more time to sort it out. :)

Profile picture for user DME

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15 years 3 months

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LOL I thought each application would require a new disclosure check. See what you mean though, get the piece of paper and show it to all airlines.

Cheers

dme

Profile picture for user ageorge

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19 years 11 months

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Nah , an admonishment is not a conviction , you don't legally have to mention it at job applications - you do have to with convictions . I've been in the same boat but with another industry and everything was / is fine . Take it easy !!.

Profile picture for user DME

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15 years 3 months

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Nah , an admonishment is not a conviction , you don't legally have to mention it at job applications - you do have to with convictions . I've been in the same boat but with another industry and everything was / is fine . Take it easy !!.

Ah, cheers mate. I'll call Dft on Monday and ask them how I can pass my disclosure onto them - see what their response is.

dme

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Posts: 257

DME,

One thing to bear in mind is, when applying for an airside ID, the disclosure certificate is only valid for ten weeks, after which you've to reapply for a new one.

Disclosure Scotland do not approve airside ID passes, this is upto the relevant Airport ID unit in accordance with their local regulations and the Dft's Aviation Security Policy. The disclosure certificate is only one part of applying for an airside ID pass. For example an ID pass issued at EDI is not automatically valid at GLA, despite both airports being owned by BAA. I understand that BAA are looking at resolving this, but its a farce that there is not a common airside ID pass that is valid at all airfields.

As regards your situation contact Transec (transec@dft.gsi.gov.uk) at the DfT and ask them, after all it is the DfT that are responsible for Transport Security. Disclosure Scotland cannot do anything unless there is an error on your disclosure certificate.

Good luck

Darren

Profile picture for user DME

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15 years 3 months

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DME,

One thing to bear in mind is, when applying for an airside ID, the disclosure certificate is only valid for ten weeks, after which you've to reapply for a new one.

Disclosure Scotland do not approve airside ID passes, this is upto the relevant Airport ID unit in accordance with their local regulations and the Dft's Aviation Security Policy. The disclosure certificate is only one part of applying for an airside ID pass. For example an ID pass issued at EDI is not automatically valid at GLA, despite both airports being owned by BAA. I understand that BAA are looking at resolving this, but its a farce that there is not a common airside ID pass that is valid at all airfields.

As regards your situation contact Transec (transec@dft.gsi.gov.uk) at the DfT and ask them, after all it is the DfT that are responsible for Transport Security. Disclosure Scotland cannot do anything unless there is an error on your disclosure certificate.

Good luck

Darren

Cheers for the info.

I never knew that each airport had to authorise each Pilot, I take it the airline apply to each field that you may visit? What about diversions?

That's the route I was going to take, contact the Dft and ask if my 'conviction' would stop me from obtaining the pass.

Cheers

dme

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19 years 11 months

Posts: 257

I should have clarified that you can still get airside access with another airport's id card, for example if you are operating from a different base for a short period of time or for diversions etc.

It is also possible to get a BAA ID card temporarily validated for use at other BAA airports, so that you can use the card for swipe access, which can save a lot of time and hassle.

If someone changes base, then they require an id card for that airport, but due to the lack of commonality between airports, they have to go through the application process all over again.

As I said before its a bit of a farce, I'm surprised the DfT has not come up with a common airside pass for all UK airfields - it would save a serious amount of hassle for companies (not to mention money).

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14 years 6 months

Posts: 320

I don't know if they class an admonishment as a conviction

In order to receive an admonishment (Scotland) or a Police Caution (England) as an alternative to a court appearance you must first admit the offence with which you were charged. The purpose of the system is to allow the police to use their discretion in dealing with offenders who may for example have acted out of character and might not be expected to re-offend, or a first offence of a minor nature and it is deemed that a warning might be sufficient to return them to the straight and narrow. However, central to the process is the "admission of guilt", if that is not made then an admonishment cannot be given and a court appearance is the next step. As far as the status of "admonishment" as a conviction is concerned, should you have committed a further offence and made a court appearance at which you were found to be guilty, then on sentencing the court would see that your record showed an admonishment. This would be viewed in exactly the same way as a previous conviction when deciding the sentence.

So to summarise, by accepting the error of their ways an offender whose "crime" might be first or minor avoids a court appearance and accepts an admonishment which is equivalent to a conviction but without incurring punishment. Without going into detail, that's the way it is and you must accept it.

Now, what to do about it? I notice that you intend to contact the DfT - good, because they are the body who interpret the rules. Write/email/fax but do not rely on a telephone conversation. Give them all the facts and ask them the simple question:

"Will my admonishment for assault dated .....1999 disqualify me from the issue of an airside pass?"

Supplementary question:

"If the answer to the previous question is "YES", at what date will the offence revealed become spent and no longer be a disqualifying factor?"

When you apply for a job with an airline the application form will ask about convictions, you must declare them all (Don't even think about holding something back as non-disclosure can subsequently become grounds for summary dismissal). You may then include the information you have received from the DfT to show that they are considered "spent" and will not be a bar to obtaining a pass.

exmpa

Profile picture for user DME

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Posts: 862

In order to receive an admonishment (Scotland) or a Police Caution (England) as an alternative to a court appearance you must first admit the offence with which you were charged. The purpose of the system is to allow the police to use their discretion in dealing with offenders who may for example have acted out of character and might not be expected to re-offend, or a first offence of a minor nature and it is deemed that a warning might be sufficient to return them to the straight and narrow. However, central to the process is the "admission of guilt", if that is not made then an admonishment cannot be given and a court appearance is the next step. As far as the status of "admonishment" as a conviction is concerned, should you have committed a further offence and made a court appearance at which you were found to be guilty, then on sentencing the court would see that your record showed an admonishment. This would be viewed in exactly the same way as a previous conviction when deciding the sentence.

So to summarise, by accepting the error of their ways an offender whose "crime" might be first or minor avoids a court appearance and accepts an admonishment which is equivalent to a conviction but without incurring punishment. Without going into detail, that's the way it is and you must accept it.

Now, what to do about it? I notice that you intend to contact the DfT - good, because they are the body who interpret the rules. Write/email/fax but do not rely on a telephone conversation. Give them all the facts and ask them the simple question:

"Will my admonishment for assault dated .....1999 disqualify me from the issue of an airside pass?"

Supplementary question:

"If the answer to the previous question is "YES", at what date will the offence revealed become spent and no longer be a disqualifying factor?"

When you apply for a job with an airline the application form will ask about convictions, you must declare them all (Don't even think about holding something back as non-disclosure can subsequently become grounds for summary dismissal). You may then include the information you have received from the DfT to show that they are considered "spent" and will not be a bar to obtaining a pass.

exmpa

Thank you very much for that helpful information.

So you recommend telling any prospective employer about my 'record' (even if it is spent) and then providing evidence that the Dft are happy about it?

Thanks again

dme

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14 years 6 months

Posts: 320

So you recommend telling any prospective employer about my 'record' (even if it is spent) and then providing evidence that the Dft are happy about it?

If your spot of bother will not affect your eligibility for issue of an airside pass, then it's up to you. But, do consider how you might respond at interview if you were confronted with the event, possibly alluded to by one of your referees. The provisions of the Rehabilitation of Offenders legislation mean that you need not declare spent convictions nor should an prospective employer include any they become aware of in their considerations. However you might deem it better to be totally up front about it and confront the issue head on. You are the best judge of the situation, you will ultimately have to decide.

exmpa

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Good luck Man

Profile picture for user Spotty M Driver

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16 years 7 months

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Of course if you work for a foreign operator, you do not have to go through this pallaver. Not required.

Why am i not amazed at the stupidity if this system. Just another bureacracy this government have set up, = more tax. (rant over)

Ex Spotty M Driver

Profile picture for user DME

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15 years 3 months

Posts: 862

Hi all,

thanks for your help. Good news, the Dft have said an admonishment is not a conviction. For it to be on the disqualifying conditions, you have to be convicted, i.e. receive a punishment.

So I'm now considering jacking in the job for 27 weeks and going to an approved ground school, rather than trying to self study. I can't seem to get into the groove with this self studying. So another 1k wasted and another lesson learned.

dme