By: Bmused55
- 3rd July 2009 at 10:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, the authorities say the plane hit the water nose first at high speed. OK, I'll buy that.
But now they are ruling out the possibility of faulty pitot tubes being the cause, without the key evidence any other crash investigation requires to determine that sort of thing: The black boxes. I'm already begining to suspect they're looking for a scapegoat.
By: sekant
- 3rd July 2009 at 12:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, the authorities say the plane hit the water nose first at high speed. OK, I'll buy that.
But now they are ruling out the possibility of faulty pitot tubes being the cause, without the key evidence any other crash investigation requires to determine that sort of thing: The black boxes. I'm already begining to suspect they're looking for a scapegoat.
1) No, they did not say that the plane hit the water nose first at high speed.
2) No they did not rule out the fact that the pitot tubes may have been a contributing factor to the crash.
You may want to try and find out what they really said before levelling that type of accusation. I am not holding my breath though.
By: nJayM
- 6th July 2009 at 19:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dumb question maybe...? But if ACARS messages can routinely be transmitted and received at maintenance headquarters, then shouldn't the very data that now lies deep within the ocean in the flight data recorders also be transmitted live in a similar fashion ? Perhaps especially when aircraft are heading out over huge expanses of water ?
You have a winner here but not just when airliners are over large oceans but also in all areas where radar coverage does not overlap.
Actually no reason why at the cost of current data storage, data compression techniques and communications technology advances, all useful data from all aircraft in the sky shouldn't be getting transmitted to central storage in real time and archived for an agreed period even after safe completion of flights.
By archiving this in flight data, manufacturers and operators can achieve huge advances in research and reduce development time scales and thereby costs of beneficial enhancements.
Alas it will cost money and in this economic recession it will inevitably get deffered - pity though.
By: Bmused55
- 6th July 2009 at 21:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
1) No, they did not say that the plane hit the water nose first at high speed.
2) No they did not rule out the fact that the pitot tubes may have been a contributing factor to the crash.
You may want to try and find out what they really said before levelling that type of accusation. I am not holding my breath though.
My comments were based on 3 articles I read about an hour before posting. Of course, the media can get it wrong, as they often do. If those articles were in error, that's fine by me.
Having gone back to find the articles in question, they now all state it hits "Belly first". Hmm
By: sekant
- 7th July 2009 at 20:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My comments were based on 3 articles I read about an hour before posting. Of course, the media can get it wrong, as they often do. If those articles were in error, that's fine by me.
Having gone back to find the articles in question, they now all state it hits "Belly first". Hmm
Fact is, your statement that they ruled out that the pitot tube may be a factor in the crash is incorrect. Levelling accusations on that basis is therefore dishonest. But there is nothing new here.
By: steve rowell
- 16th July 2009 at 02:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Secret aviation industry calculations have raised uncomfortable questions for Air France: Airbus aircraft belonging to the French carrier have an above-average rate of crashes. An internal report obtained by SPIEGEL criticizes the company's safety culture.
SPIEGEL has learned of secret aviation industry calculations which conclude that Air France's Airbus fleet has an aircraft loss rate of 1.26 per 1 million flights, That is four times higher than other airlines' average (0.3 losses per million flights).
Three Air France Airbus jets have crashed since 1988. A fourth Airbus jet belonging to Air France's later subsidiary Air Inter also crashed.
The new figures coincide with a debate in France about whether the crash of the Airbus A330, flying from Rio de Janeiro to Paris in which all 288 people aboard were killed, resulted in part from reckless behavior by the pilots.
An internal report from 2006, which has been obtained by SPIEGEL, had complained about a deficient culture of safety at the airline. The report said the company lacked "a clear and objective view of performance in the area of flight safety."
According to the report, eight out of 10 accidents or incidents at Air France resulted from human factors -- such as a lack of attention, poor decision-making processes and mistakes in co-operation between pilot and co-pilot.
It added that an analysis of incidents with A330/340 models indicated that pilots show "a certain degree of overconfidence or even complacency." Air France says it has rectified all shortcomings since the report was presented in June 2006.
The airline responded to the safety statistics by quoting figures from the International Air Transport Association (IATA) which include all of Air France's aircraft types. These statistics show an average safety record for the company even after the recent accident, an Air France spokesperson pointed out.
By: J Boyle
- 16th July 2009 at 18:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just asking a question....and I'd like some serious opinions
Do you have confidence that the French investigators will be impartial in their findings?
I only ask because of some of the comments here about the Fench safety org. and AF having a rather cozy relationship...and suspicions about their attitude towards Airbus products....(i.e. blame anyone other than the aircraft) raised by some posters.
By: steve rowell
- 1st August 2009 at 02:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Airbus have announced that they will be willing to contribute between €12 million and €20 million (about US$16 million to $28 million) to fund an extended search for the black boxes from Air France Flight 447. The Airbus A330 jetliner crashed into the Atlantic Ocean in June, killing all 228 people on board.
Chief executive Thomas Enders said in a statement, "We want to know what happened, as improving air safety is our top priority. We are fully committed to support the extension of the search with a significant contribution." Although airframers normally supply technical assistance to investigations, the required impartiality makes funding rare, with Airbus spokesman Stefan Schaffrath saying the company's move was unprecedented.
"This is an exceptional accident and an exceptional situation," Schaffrath explained. France's investigative agency BEA has requested financial assistance for the search from both Airbus and Air France. Air France have discussed this possibility with the BEA.
Investigators have already given up looking for the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder using the conventional method of tracing audio 'pingers', the batteries of which would have expired after 30–40 days. Efforts are ongoing using sensitive equipment under tow from a French naval vessel, but if this search proves fruitless then the BEA will seek money for a further three-month search.
The jet's Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was able to transmit information regarding problems on board prior to the crash. The ACARS data suggests that the plane had suffered from a loss of valuable readings including airspeed, leading suspicion to fall on the pitot-static system which supplies various measurements.
Airbus had already recommended that one component of this system, the pitot tubes, be replaced on A330s. Air France had not done this on the accident airplane although the entire fleet now features the modified design. Three other incidents have been identified since that may involve similar circumstances. The United States National Transportation Safety Board is probing two over American soil while earlier this month another Air France A330 equipped with the new tubes suffered a similar series of problems enroute from Italy to France.
By: Bmused55
- 15th August 2009 at 12:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It has all gone very quiet hasn't it?
I supose without finding the recorders and with the majority of the fuselage and its victims consigned to the very deep, there isn't much information to go around.
Posts: 11,159
By: Ren Frew - 2nd July 2009 at 22:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Surely easy to compress in the current digital era... ?
Posts: 10,625
By: Bmused55 - 3rd July 2009 at 10:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, the authorities say the plane hit the water nose first at high speed. OK, I'll buy that.
But now they are ruling out the possibility of faulty pitot tubes being the cause, without the key evidence any other crash investigation requires to determine that sort of thing: The black boxes. I'm already begining to suspect they're looking for a scapegoat.
Posts: 352
By: sekant - 3rd July 2009 at 12:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
1) No, they did not say that the plane hit the water nose first at high speed.
2) No they did not rule out the fact that the pitot tubes may have been a contributing factor to the crash.
You may want to try and find out what they really said before levelling that type of accusation. I am not holding my breath though.
Posts: 1,684
By: nJayM - 6th July 2009 at 19:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You have a winner here but not just when airliners are over large oceans but also in all areas where radar coverage does not overlap.
Actually no reason why at the cost of current data storage, data compression techniques and communications technology advances, all useful data from all aircraft in the sky shouldn't be getting transmitted to central storage in real time and archived for an agreed period even after safe completion of flights.
By archiving this in flight data, manufacturers and operators can achieve huge advances in research and reduce development time scales and thereby costs of beneficial enhancements.
Alas it will cost money and in this economic recession it will inevitably get deffered - pity though.
Posts: 10,625
By: Bmused55 - 6th July 2009 at 21:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My comments were based on 3 articles I read about an hour before posting. Of course, the media can get it wrong, as they often do. If those articles were in error, that's fine by me.
Having gone back to find the articles in question, they now all state it hits "Belly first". Hmm
Posts: 352
By: sekant - 7th July 2009 at 20:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fact is, your statement that they ruled out that the pitot tube may be a factor in the crash is incorrect. Levelling accusations on that basis is therefore dishonest. But there is nothing new here.
Posts: 5,530
By: PMN - 7th July 2009 at 21:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How is quoting what someone sees in a report dishonest? Also, isn't your closing sentence bordering on being a little personal?
Perhaps it's you who needs to think about what he posts a little more carefully. :rolleyes:
Paul
Posts: 2,623
By: Deano - 7th July 2009 at 22:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
sekant
Paul is correct, that's quite enough. Personal attacks on these boards are not welcome, take them elsewhere please.
Any more posts of this ilk will be deleted without recourse, stick to the topic in question, any more off topic posts from anyone will be deleted.
Dean
Posts: 12,842
By: steve rowell - 16th July 2009 at 02:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Secret aviation industry calculations have raised uncomfortable questions for Air France: Airbus aircraft belonging to the French carrier have an above-average rate of crashes. An internal report obtained by SPIEGEL criticizes the company's safety culture.
SPIEGEL has learned of secret aviation industry calculations which conclude that Air France's Airbus fleet has an aircraft loss rate of 1.26 per 1 million flights, That is four times higher than other airlines' average (0.3 losses per million flights).
Three Air France Airbus jets have crashed since 1988. A fourth Airbus jet belonging to Air France's later subsidiary Air Inter also crashed.
The new figures coincide with a debate in France about whether the crash of the Airbus A330, flying from Rio de Janeiro to Paris in which all 288 people aboard were killed, resulted in part from reckless behavior by the pilots.
An internal report from 2006, which has been obtained by SPIEGEL, had complained about a deficient culture of safety at the airline. The report said the company lacked "a clear and objective view of performance in the area of flight safety."
According to the report, eight out of 10 accidents or incidents at Air France resulted from human factors -- such as a lack of attention, poor decision-making processes and mistakes in co-operation between pilot and co-pilot.
It added that an analysis of incidents with A330/340 models indicated that pilots show "a certain degree of overconfidence or even complacency." Air France says it has rectified all shortcomings since the report was presented in June 2006.
The airline responded to the safety statistics by quoting figures from the International Air Transport Association (IATA) which include all of Air France's aircraft types. These statistics show an average safety record for the company even after the recent accident, an Air France spokesperson pointed out.
Source: SPIEGEL
Posts: 7,536
By: KabirT - 16th July 2009 at 06:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
secret aviation calculations? what the hell is that?:confused:
Posts: 10,160
By: Grey Area - 16th July 2009 at 18:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Stuff that a journalist has pulled out of their backside, perhaps? :cool:
I can't find the story on the "Der Spiegel" website. Any chance of a link, Steve?
Posts: 4,450
By: frankvw - 16th July 2009 at 18:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, it isn't surprising coming from that paper...
Posts: 10,160
By: Grey Area - 16th July 2009 at 18:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Willy Brandt wasn't all that fond of it, was he?
Posts: 9,823
By: J Boyle - 16th July 2009 at 18:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just asking a question....and I'd like some serious opinions
Do you have confidence that the French investigators will be impartial in their findings?
I only ask because of some of the comments here about the Fench safety org. and AF having a rather cozy relationship...and suspicions about their attitude towards Airbus products....(i.e. blame anyone other than the aircraft) raised by some posters.
Posts: 10,160
By: Grey Area - 16th July 2009 at 20:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've seen (and heard) similar comments about the FAA being hand in glove with Boeing that were based on equally groundless prejudice.
At the end of the day, we just have to trust professionals to do their jobs properly.
Posts: 2,814
By: Levsha - 16th July 2009 at 21:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,635821,00.html
Posts: 7,536
By: KabirT - 17th July 2009 at 05:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
even so Lance, could have come up with something a bit more...non-2nd grade? :rolleyes:
Posts: 12,842
By: steve rowell - 1st August 2009 at 02:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Airbus have announced that they will be willing to contribute between €12 million and €20 million (about US$16 million to $28 million) to fund an extended search for the black boxes from Air France Flight 447. The Airbus A330 jetliner crashed into the Atlantic Ocean in June, killing all 228 people on board.
Chief executive Thomas Enders said in a statement, "We want to know what happened, as improving air safety is our top priority. We are fully committed to support the extension of the search with a significant contribution." Although airframers normally supply technical assistance to investigations, the required impartiality makes funding rare, with Airbus spokesman Stefan Schaffrath saying the company's move was unprecedented.
"This is an exceptional accident and an exceptional situation," Schaffrath explained. France's investigative agency BEA has requested financial assistance for the search from both Airbus and Air France. Air France have discussed this possibility with the BEA.
Investigators have already given up looking for the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder using the conventional method of tracing audio 'pingers', the batteries of which would have expired after 30–40 days. Efforts are ongoing using sensitive equipment under tow from a French naval vessel, but if this search proves fruitless then the BEA will seek money for a further three-month search.
The jet's Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was able to transmit information regarding problems on board prior to the crash. The ACARS data suggests that the plane had suffered from a loss of valuable readings including airspeed, leading suspicion to fall on the pitot-static system which supplies various measurements.
Airbus had already recommended that one component of this system, the pitot tubes, be replaced on A330s. Air France had not done this on the accident airplane although the entire fleet now features the modified design. Three other incidents have been identified since that may involve similar circumstances. The United States National Transportation Safety Board is probing two over American soil while earlier this month another Air France A330 equipped with the new tubes suffered a similar series of problems enroute from Italy to France.
Source: Wikinews
Posts: 552
By: Rickt - 14th August 2009 at 15:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does any one know if there has been any recent progress with this mystery?
Posts: 10,625
By: Bmused55 - 15th August 2009 at 12:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It has all gone very quiet hasn't it?
I supose without finding the recorders and with the majority of the fuselage and its victims consigned to the very deep, there isn't much information to go around.