AF447 (Merged)

Profile picture for user kev35

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 6,968

Sandy.

As a rule, 228 people don't die during the football match.

regards,

kev35

Profile picture for user Bmused55

Member for

16 years 7 months

Posts: 10,625

No, but the principle is the same.

Profile picture for user kev35

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 6,968

No, but the principle is the same.

If you can equate the ill informed speculation over the deaths of 228 people with a discussion on whether Ronaldo was offside or Drogba's card should have been yellow or red then I really do find that quite sad.

Regards,

kev35

Profile picture for user Grey Area

Member for

16 years 2 months

Posts: 10,160

Moderator Message

Gentlemen, if your squabble must continue then it would be best continued by PM.

May I remind you of the subject of this thread, and ask you to consider whether such bickering is seemly or appropriate?

Thanks

GA

Profile picture for user kev35

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 6,968

Lance.

It was precisely the appropriateness of the subject matter of this thread upon which I was commenting.

Message received and understood.

Regards,

kev35

Member for

11 years

Posts: 50

When the news first broke this morning that a plane was missing, there was a worldwide sharp intake of breath. As the day has worn on, speculation as to why this tragedy has happened have been tossed back and forth. The why's, wherefore's and could be's, should be's will no doubt be in the forefront of the investigators minds over the coming days, weeks and months as they sift through what evidence they have.

But until those nationalities were released it was all too easy to set aside that all around the world tonight there are families whose loved ones will not be going home. Those families will be mourning their losses long after the ink has dried on the accident report, those families will be forever asking 'why them?'.

Thoughts & prayers go to each and every family, friend and colleague of those who will not be going home tonight or ever again.

Member for

14 years 5 months

Posts: 1,039

Well said Shamrock

Profile picture for user Whiskey Delta

Member for

17 years

Posts: 2,513

What do the tech people here think of the multiple lightning strike theory? Can it lead to electrical failure which in turn may lead to loss of cabin pressure.

I can't imagine an aircraft being struck by multiple lightning bolts in a short amount of time. Once struck the charge built up by the airframe would be eliminated. It would take awhile for the airframe to build up another charge before lightning would be drawn to it. At least that's my take on it.

As long as the aircraft engines are working the pneumatic system is providing pressurized air. An electrical emergency would hamper the ability for the pressurization system to modulate the internal pressure most likely. Not being familiar with the Airbus systems I don't know exactly how the pressurization system acts in an electrical emergency. It would be safe to say that the result wouldn't be a rapid depressurization of the aircraft though. The outflow valves may slam shut leaving the internal pressure to very slowly bleed off through the aircraft joints. There would be time before the aircraft was completely depressurized.

A structural failure would be the only way that I can see there being a catastrophic depressurization. The pressure vessel basically needs to be popped to the point where the outflow valves can't control the pressure anymore. Any hole in the aircraft would have to be larger than the outflow valves to cause a serious problem and a lightning bolt would only punch a small hole through the aircraft skin.

I'm curious to what the reports mean by "dropped off the radar". Did the radar return just go away or did it actually show the aircraft turn/climb/decent/etc. before it disappeared. An electrical emergency could have killed the transponder which would have made it disappear off the scopes while the aircraft continued to fly along.

Member for

14 years

Posts: 168

This is just so hard to believe, since i started working in this industry any crash just hits home even harder, i put people on these flights on a daily basis even for AF and you i never image that anything like this can happen, you see them take off and you never think that plane might just not make it there, I have high hopes that something will be found within the next 24-48 hours, and I hold hope even being it the tiniest glimmer of hope that someone will be found alive.

That Adam Air 737 just vanished of the Radar during its cruise.

Exactly what went through my mind, if the lightning strike has possibly taken the avionics out, may the pilots have succumbed to Spacial Disorientation?

Does the 330 not have an stand alone analogue AH?

A lightning strike alone should not have such a drastic effect on a modern airliner??

If I'm reading charts correctly. The ocean around the area in question is up to 2 miles deep. It's going to be hard to get a signal from the locator beacons on the boxes at that depth.

Would the electronic components in the boxes be able to withstand such pressures at the depths where talking about?

Member for

11 years

Posts: 50

Unsubstantiated but still coming back to the same thing, a report in the Daily Mail has quoted a source from Air France in Paris...

The flight had been due to arrive at Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris at 11.15am today - some 11 hours later - but air traffic controllers had their last contact with the aircraft about four hours into the flight.

The pilot came on the radio saying he had hit severe turbulence. Fifteen minutes later the aircraft's systems sent automatic error messages reporting multiple electrical faults and a drastic loss of cabin pressure.

Such factors suggested that the plane had broken up in the storm, said an Air France source in Paris.

The source confirmed that there was ‘no hope’ of finding anybody in the wreckage.

The Brazilian Air Force is carrying out a search for the missing aircraft.

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1190034/Air-France-plane-228-board-vanishes-sparking-fears-British-passengers.html

Trying to understand how a plane the size of a 330 would 'break up' in a storm is unfathomable...is that even possible?

President Sarkozy has been speaking to the families at the airport, a short press speech was made and can be heard via the BBC...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8078090.stm

The human side to this tragedy is just so devastating...

This evening, at Charles de Gaulle, French president Nicolas Sarkozy met some of families of those aboard the plane, including 'a mother who lost her son, a fiance who lost her future husband'.

'I told them the truth,' he said. 'The prospects of finding survivors are very small.'

When a plane goes down on dry land, there is always somewhere for families to go and share their grief and to be close to their loved ones at the point where they died. But when a plane crashes at sea, they have nothing left apart from fragments of personal possessions, if they are fortunate enough to find them. This is more a human tragedy than anything else...Air France & Airbus as companies will move and possibly learn from it but the people affected by it will be forever scarred by it.

Profile picture for user swerve

Member for

15 years

Posts: 13,432

I'm curious to what the reports mean by "dropped off the radar". Did the radar return just go away or did it actually show the aircraft turn/climb/decent/etc. before it disappeared.

From the official statements, I think it just flew out of range of Brazilian ATC radar, as normal on that route.

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 30

The plane could have a structural defect, that could have happened years and years ago, constantly weakening througth flight cycles. When the storm placed an increase in the amount of stress acting upon the fuselarge, it could have ruptured causing the decompression. Something similar happened in Japan Air 123 and that China Airways 747 that broke up suddenly en route from Taipai to HK

Profile picture for user J Boyle

Member for

15 years 7 months

Posts: 9,679

The plane could have a structural defect, that could have happened years and years ago, constantly weakening througth flight cycles.

Aviation Week says the plane had "only" 18,000 hours...I don't know how many cycles, but probably not many since it's a long haul aircraft.

IF it was a storm, it wouldn't be the first time a jetliner came apart...(starting with Comet G-ALYV on 2 May 1953) but IIRC, it hasn't happened for awhile.

Profile picture for user tomfellows

Member for

15 years 2 months

Posts: 1,995

As said, the sad truth is that we may never know what truly happened. If they do ever find the wreckage, I guess the Flight Data Recorders will be sat at the bottom of the sea, and if they're 2 miles down I doubt they will be recovered and be of use.

Member for

13 years 2 months

Posts: 1,656

The plane could have a structural defect, that could have happened years and years ago, constantly weakening througth flight cycles. When the storm placed an increase in the amount of stress acting upon the fuselarge, it could have ruptured causing the decompression. Something similar happened in Japan Air 123 and that China Airways 747 that broke up suddenly en route from Taipai to HK

refer to page 2 of this thread, post no. 53. Airbus statement: 2500 cycles, 4 years old.

Condolences.

Profile picture for user Whiskey Delta

Member for

17 years

Posts: 2,513

Interesting article:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090601/twl-uk-france-plane-cause-sb-7f5ebb3.html

Two Lufthansa jets passed through turbulence before and after a missing Air France plane without incident Monday, a source with access to data said, leaving experts scrambling to assess the weather's role in the disaster. Skip related content

A frantic air-sea search was under way to locate the missing Airbus and its 228 passengers and crew more than 12 hours after it was presumed to have crashed into the Atlantic on a flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris early Monday.

Air France said the Airbus A330 plane had hit stormy weather and "strong turbulence" and a spokesman said it could have been hit by lightning.

If so, it would be the worst air disaster caused by lightning, according to the Aviation Safety Network, but most experts said such a strike was unlikely to down a modern jet.

In the worst previous recorded incident blamed on lightning, 113 people were killed in 1962 on a Boeing 707, also operated by Air France, the Dutch-based database organisation said.

Brazil said Monday's aircraft last made radar contact at 0133 GMT after passing the Fernando de Noronha islands off its northern coast, about 250 miles (400 km) south of the equator.

It was heading towards a notorious stormy patch that shifts around the equator known as the Intertropical Convergence Zone.

It had been preceded safely on the same track 30 minutes earlier by a Boeing 747-400 heading to Frankfurt for Lufthansa, according to a source with access to data transmitted from jetliners for the World Meteorological Organisation.

Two hours later an MD-11 cargo plane also flown by Lufthansa passed just south of the same spot on the way to West Africa, the source told Reuters, asking not to be identified.

Neither aircraft reported any anomaly.

"You can't tie it down to lightning with the information we have; for me it's a red herring," said the source, who specialises in aviation weather. Lufthansa declined comment.

CIRCUIT FAILURE

An Air France captain operating on long-range routes, who agreed to speak to Reuters on condition of anonymity, said lightning alone was unlikely to have caused the presumed crash.

"I would not think it was possible that lightning could lead to a short-circuit and disrupt all of the plane's electrical systems. Test planes have resisted some 30 lightning strikes and nothing ever happened," the pilot said.

More likely, he said, is that the jet might have suffered an electrical system failure which would have turned off its radars and communications systems, turning it blind and making it more vulnerable to storms and strong lateral air currents.

Air France said the A330 plane sent an automatic message at 3:14 a.m. British time indicating an electrical circuit failure. There were no other official details on the possible cause of the crash.

Lightning strikes are fairly common but planes built out of metal like the A330 are designed to be able to shake them off.

The massive current passes along the metal fuselage and is allowed to arc towards earth without causing harm.

The idea is based on a principle known as a Faraday Cage, which protects passengers inside a mesh of conducting material.

Member for

14 years

Posts: 168

the article above can't place doubt in a lightning strike though, if the lightning strike hits the right area it could surge through the electrical systems popping fusses etc which like i mentioned earlier possibly knock the avionics out, given the fact the aircraft was in a storm at night they would have no outside visual references, allowing for spatial disorientation.

Although i would like to think on an aircraft of that age this shouldn't have been the case.

Profile picture for user Rickt

Member for

13 years 8 months

Posts: 552

I have been following this tragic event from the moment the news broke this morning.

One thing which really is sad, is the below recording of a worried UK relative posted on the SKY NEWS website. (scroll half way down.)

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Air-France-Jet-Missing-Off-Brazilian-Coast-Five-British-Citizens-Among-Passengers-On-Flight-AF-447/Article/200906115292606?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15292606_Air_France_Jet_Missing_Off_Brazilian_Coast%3A_Five_British_Citizens_Among_Passengers_On_Flight_AF_447

I feel SKY NEWS should not have this posted on their site, its a worried wife talking about her husband still holding out hope stating his mobile phone is still turned on.

Media is a great tool, but I personally feel Sky news have gone a bit too far to publish this to the public as there is no benefit to broadcast this until the facts are published. it is clear this is a lady needing to speak to someone or seeking further information but not to SKY News.

My heart goes out to all families involved.

Rick

Member for

14 years

Posts: 168

BBC news have posted a video interview with the same woman.

Profile picture for user Rickt

Member for

13 years 8 months

Posts: 552

BBC news have posted a video interview with the same woman.

I have just watched that this second..... Its tragic.....

RIP

Rick