AF447 (Merged)

Profile picture for user Ren Frew

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 11,159

Don't some mobiles have direct satellite links now?

Well some have GPS systems for sat-nav purposes but unless you have an actual sat-phone I don't think you can use them for regular calls and texts.

Member for

14 years

Posts: 168

If some of the passengers did make last minute calls and texts can the authorities not just get the phone companys to trace the last known position of the signal?

Profile picture for user Giblets

Member for

12 years 2 months

Posts: 455

In relation to mobile phone texts and calls, that was something that happened alot during the 9/11 Shanksville hijack, the calls were not just via the aircraft's own satellite phone systems, they were from passengers personal cellphones too. I believe something such as a Blackberry can work perfectly well whilst on board an airliner and many airlines do now allow use of cellphones during flights...obviously not during landing or take-off.

Given the weather conditions the very use of the cellphones may even have a bearing on what happened to this plane. From my flights with Air France last year to/from Asia there were people using cellphones quite freely and they didn't appear to be having any connection problems.

The main difference was those flights are over land, so often directly over transmitters,

Member for

11 years

Posts: 50

If some of the passengers did make last minute calls and texts can the authorities not just get the phone companys to trace the last known position of the signal?

I think that is why they have requested assistance from the US in regards to their satellites, to see what they picked up Sunday night/Monday morning. Obama has said he will have his people assist in any way they can to find out where the plane was so hopefully they will have the technical know-how to pinpoint the area for the searchers.

Profile picture for user Dan380

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12 years 4 months

Posts: 377

if the lightning strike hits the right area it could surge through the electrical systems popping fusses etc which like i mentioned earlier possibly knock the avionics out, given the fact the aircraft was in a storm at night they would have no outside visual references, allowing for spatial disorientation.

I'm no accident expert (unless watching ever episode of Air Crash Investigation makes me an expert!), but the little theory I've come up with is pretty much what you've just said. They're flying through a storm at night, so they're only navigation tools are their instruments, right? So A lightning strike, if it could take out the electrical systems could destroy their instruments or make them give strange readings. Either way, spacial disoriontation could kick in, and slowly they begin a deadly bank or dive. That would explain the lack of contact to ATC, as if they believed their equipment was still working when it wasn't, they would have no reason to question anything around them.

But that's just my speculation.

Profile picture for user Grey Area

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16 years 2 months

Posts: 10,160

Shamrock,

Your post #121 has a map attached (rather than linked to) that you say was handed out to journalists by the Brazilian Air Force.

Are you a journalist, by any chance?

Profile picture for user kev35

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20 years 5 months

Posts: 6,968

I'm no accident expert (unless watching ever episode of Air Crash Investigation makes me an expert!)

But surely that's the point? None of you are experts! I fail to see how this kind of discussion on what happened is useful to anyone other than for the entertainment of those taking part. It does absolutely nothing to further the investigation, (which will be carried out by experts) and is, in my opinion, disrespectful to the dead and their relatives and friends and colleagues. I'm sure the families gain some comfort from their loss in knowing that their tragedy has provided entertainment for you.

Regards,

kev35

Profile picture for user Bmused55

Member for

16 years 7 months

Posts: 10,625

Please, give it a rest Kev, Lance has already brought out the red ink once.
No one here is suggesting this is entertaining.
We have as much right to talk about this as you have not to read the thread.

Member for

15 years

Posts: 1,082

But surely that's the point? None of you are experts! I fail to see how this kind of discussion on what happened is useful to anyone other than for the entertainment of those taking part. It does absolutely nothing to further the investigation, (which will be carried out by experts) and is, in my opinion, disrespectful to the dead and their relatives and friends and colleagues. I'm sure the families gain some comfort from their loss in knowing that their tragedy has provided entertainment for you.

Regards,

kev35

A little harsh Kev, but probably very true..... :(.

There is another web source that has a similar thread running, and even there they seem to be sufferring a fair amount of "self informed" inaccurate speculation, amongst some well informed input from contributors who are no doubt professionals.

At times the web works well and aids comunication in tiems of disaster, at other times like this it adds nothing to situation. The trouble is that journalists may look at, and possibly quote uninfromed speculation as if it is valid comment.

As you say, armchair-experts' speculation does little to aid the investigation process, and does absolutely nothing to comfort the bereaved - in fact idle speculation as to the events leading up to the assumed loss of all aboard may add to their distress.

However ill-informed much of the speculation may be, is it perhaps simply a an unfortunate way for people to express their shock and concern - where perhaps a simple statement of sympathy and condolence might be better? I am sure few contributors here intend to be disrespectful.

It's a little bit like discussing the matter 'down the pub', we all tend to do it, the trouble is this "pub" is globally accessible in real-time, and anyone and everyone can listen in, misundertand, and mis-quote what is little more than ill-informed bar-room chit-chat, without any means of checking the credentials of those spouting it.

Maybe the mods need to reign in some of the speculation, or at least challenge some contributors to offer details of their level of "expertise" in the matters on which they speak?

Profile picture for user Grey Area

Member for

16 years 2 months

Posts: 10,160

Moderator Message

Maybe the mods need to reign in some of the speculation....

I did exactly that yesterday when the tragic news first broke, and you should have seen some of the PMs that I got!

You can't please everyone, can you?

Anyway.... let's return to the subject of the thread now.

GA

Profile picture for user Rickt

Member for

13 years 8 months

Posts: 552

Trying to go back on topic, France 24 have just recently updated their website.

http://www.france24.com/en/20090602-search-teams-hunt-debris-missing-air-france-jet-crisis-centre

No real news as such, but the reporting is better than the UK media.

Regarding the above comments about speculation, until the facts are presented no one knows, even more so the media who are reporting on this every minute.

Lets not get the thread locked as thats really frustrating for members who are not in a debate.......

Rick

Profile picture for user Rickt

Member for

13 years 8 months

Posts: 552

NEWS JUST IN

[COLOR="Navy"]http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Air-France-Plane-Missing-Plane-Wreckage-Spotted-By-Brazilian-Air-Force/Article/200906115293420?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15293420_Air_France_Plane_Missing%3A_Plane_Wreckage_Spotted_By_Brazilian_Air_Force

The Brazilian jets searching for an Air France airliner that vanished over the Atlantic Ocean have reportedly spotted plane wreckage.

An Airbus A330-200 similar to the Air France plane that vanished

The South American country's air force apparently found debris about 1,000 miles (600km) off its coast.

ALSO .. Different distance...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8079122.stm

Brazilian aircraft searching for an Air France jet which went missing with 228 people aboard in an Atlantic storm have spotted debris on the ocean.

"Small remains" were located 650km (400 miles) north-east of Brazil's Fernando do Noronha island, the Brazilian air force said.

It could not be immediately confirmed that the debris came from the Airbus.

The jet was heading from Brazil to Paris when it vanished about four hours into its flight, early on Monday.[/COLOR]

Profile picture for user Dan380

Member for

12 years 4 months

Posts: 377

I would just like to say, before we go swiftly back on topic. When did anyone say we were trying to help the investigation? Of course we can't, we're not trained experts and we know that! This is an aviation forum and if we want to discuss the aviation aspects of the accident, I think we are fully entitled to. As much as I do feel sorrow for the families and friends of those involved, mass coensorship of anything relating to the causes of the crash is just absurd.

I think some people are just getting the complete wrong end of the stick with what "speculation" we are getting involved in. We are not trying to solve an investigation, nor are we trying to upset any relatives of those lost on the flight. we are just discussing the accident, on an aviation discussion forum.

I think we should be back on topic though.

Profile picture for user Mondariz

Member for

12 years 9 months

Posts: 1,578

But surely that's the point? None of you are experts! I fail to see how this kind of discussion on what happened is useful to anyone other than for the entertainment of those taking part. It does absolutely nothing to further the investigation, (which will be carried out by experts) and is, in my opinion, disrespectful to the dead and their relatives and friends and colleagues. I'm sure the families gain some comfort from their loss in knowing that their tragedy has provided entertainment for you.

Regards,

kev35

Besides the so called "Armchair-experts" with their theories, threads like this provide links to news, information and articles, which people might not otherwise have found. There is nothing disrespectful in having an interest in the fate of our fellow humans – if anything it’s a sign of respect.

There are many aerospace professionals here and it’s not impossible, that some part of the ideas passed around, might one day be useful to someone. Besides, this forum is often better informed that the normal news outlets.

I don’t think anyone finds this entertaining in any way.

Profile picture for user Peter

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 10,028

Just announced over here on CTV news that reports of an aircraft seat floating on the water and a large fuel trail on the water. Weather conditions at the time is very poor. Thoughts and prayers extended to the family and friends of the passengers and crew at this terrible time.

Profile picture for user Bmused55

Member for

16 years 7 months

Posts: 10,625

oh oh...this is where the harsh reality is now going to hit home :(

Profile picture for user Rickt

Member for

13 years 8 months

Posts: 552

[COLOR="Navy"]
NEWS JUST IN

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Air-France-Plane-Missing-Plane-Wreckage-Spotted-By-Brazilian-Air-Force/Article/200906115293420?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15293420_Air_France_Plane_Missing%3A_Plane_Wreckage_Spotted_By_Brazilian_Air_Force

The Brazilian jets searching for an Air France airliner that vanished over the Atlantic Ocean have reportedly spotted plane wreckage.

An Airbus A330-200 similar to the Air France plane that vanished

The South American country's air force apparently found debris about 1,000 miles (600km) off its coast.

ALSO .. Different distance...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8079122.stm

Brazilian aircraft searching for an Air France jet which went missing with 228 people aboard in an Atlantic storm have spotted debris on the ocean.

"Small remains" were located 650km (400 miles) north-east of Brazil's Fernando do Noronha island, the Brazilian air force said.

It could not be immediately confirmed that the debris came from the Airbus.

The jet was heading from Brazil to Paris when it vanished about four hours into its flight, early on Monday.[/COLOR]

Sky are now reporting 400 Miles off the Brazil Coast on TV... website is a little delayed.

The South American country's air force found debris 390 or 1,000 miles off its coast, depending on reports.

Brazilian media reported Tuesday that search planes may have spotted some signs of debris, including plane seats, from the Air France jetliner missing in the Atlantic Ocean. But the air force isn't immediately confirming if it is the lost jet.

Brazil's Globo TV quoted a ham radio operator who reported hearing air force radio traffic that debris possibly from the plane, that was carrying 228 people, had been spotted about 435 miles north of the Brazilian archipelago of Fernando de Noronha.

And the Web site of the Folha de S. Paulo newspaper says air force radar has detected signs of oil and metal in the same area.


Source - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524263,00.html

Rick

Profile picture for user Rickt

Member for

13 years 8 months

Posts: 552


Im not sure how correct the below information is from a Brazil newspaper source

it includes some high detail information.

- http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.folha.uol.com.br/&ei=NyQlSpaeHpqUjAfimPjWBw&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DFolha%2Bde%2BS.%2BPaulo%2Bnewspaper%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG%26num%3D50

My heart goes out to all family and friends involved.

Rick

Profile picture for user Ren Frew

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 11,159

I would just like to say, before we go swiftly back on topic. When did anyone say we were trying to help the investigation? Of course we can't, we're not trained experts and we know that! This is an aviation forum and if we want to discuss the aviation aspects of the accident, I think we are fully entitled to. As much as I do feel sorrow for the families and friends of those involved, mass coensorship of anything relating to the causes of the crash is just absurd.

I think some people are just getting the complete wrong end of the stick with what "speculation" we are getting involved in. We are not trying to solve an investigation, nor are we trying to upset any relatives of those lost on the flight. we are just discussing the accident, on an aviation discussion forum.

I think we should be back on topic though.

Well said that man....;)

Profile picture for user EGTC

Member for

11 years 4 months

Posts: 2,828

Thing is you can discuss this constantly, point is they may have only just found wreckage and it will still be a while before they come to any sort of idea or conclusion as to what happened.

I respect that some people want to discuss the accident but I rarely get involved. I find that throwing around personal ideas and theories on a forum where journalists can get hold of the information and broadcast it is something I dont want to be part of. Afterall all ideas produced in this topic are theories as theres relatively little real information to go on. I don't believe anyone here has been trained to deal with an aircraft accident and therefore all views are ineffectual. The only people who may truely have the remotest of ideas of what may of been going on is pilot's and aircraft techies but I dont believe any of them will throw around ideas because there are many possibilities of what could of gone wrong but the important thing is to find out the real reason.

Ultimately this is a very very sad loss of life and will no doubt be a very rare accident. I cannot imagine how the families must be feeling and my heart goes out to them.