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By: - 6th January 2005 at 17:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'll be fine if they can run on Methane. I'd even be able to sell the surplus!
By: - 6th January 2005 at 19:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some years ago there was a motor racing series in the UK that used Alcohol. It was an idea from Brazil I think and was brewed from sugar cane? Strange smell and was difficult to see when on fire :eek:
Where would your methane come from Melvyn? The old cowshed? :D
mmitch.
By: - 6th January 2005 at 19:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Where would your methane come from Melvyn? The old cowshed? :D
mmitch.
Much closer to home . . .
By: - 6th January 2005 at 22:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The US CART race series uses Methanol.
I think the specific power output of methanol is considerably less than that of petrol - but with the use of turbo's and additives that shouldn't be a problem. I think it's also quite hard on the engine so will reduce the TBOH.
Worth what you paid for it :)
JC
By: - 7th January 2005 at 01:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think we still have some 35/50 years left, and anyway there are surely lots of areas to start digging, the point is that it will become more and more expensive.. additives are not the solution though, I mean they could be used of course, but this would drastically reduce the TBO and even the HPs. What really scares me is that we still dont have a valuable alternative to oil, so I wonder what all the vehicles in the world will have to use to keep going..
Alex
By: - 7th January 2005 at 22:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Your Gipsy will run happily on unleaded mogas surely? If you're into more rarified forms of fuel, Sywell do 80 UL (a more refined form of mogas)
By: - 7th January 2005 at 22:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When I was at junior school in the mid 70's apparently there was only 20 years of oil left. There's always 20 years of oil left.
Another reason I don't trust politicians.
If there's 50 years of oil remaining,by the time it runs out I'll at best be dribbling into my laptop and reading Moggy's and Melv's senile ramblings and at worst finding out for sure if there's an afterlife. Either way I doubt if I'll be that concerned :)
JC
By: - 7th January 2005 at 23:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fossil fuels such as diesel, petrol, avgas and avtur will run out one day but there are alternatives.
Diesel and avtur are very close in the manufacturing process, as is domestic heating oil - therefore a diesel or turbine engine will run on any of these fuels.
There is a plant derived diesel fuel which comes from oil seed rape, this could be a possible future alternative for aero diesel engines.
Cooking oil is plant based and an automotive diesel engine will run on it, check it out in tesco's - its a lot cheaper per litre than forecourt diesel, though you would need a pretty big basket to carry out 60 litres to your Golf turbo diesel!!
Methanol and alcohol are plant based (!), they are possible replacements for use in spark ignition engines, these fuels are used in racing in the UK, go to any DragRace meeting (Santa Pod, ex USAAF Podington), most cars will be running on these fuels or nitro-methanol, smells lovely!!
There will be ways around it as fuel technology increases, if not we're all going to need some real big rubber bands!!! :) :)
By: - 8th January 2005 at 01:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Are there more than 20 years supply of rubber bands then? :D
Seriously though, I think the most critical point is the cost of fuel. It will rise, and use will become more exclusive as a result. (Back to normal - hey, one day those in N America may even end up paying British prices...)
Can we think of any machine that will no longer run due to lack of driving fuel?
Cheers
By: - 8th January 2005 at 02:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fossil fuels such as diesel, petrol, avgas and avtur will run out one day but there are alternatives.
Diesel and avtur are very close in the manufacturing process, as is domestic heating oil - therefore a diesel or turbine engine will run on any of these fuels.There is a plant derived diesel fuel which comes from oil seed rape, this could be a possible future alternative for aero diesel engines.
Cooking oil is plant based and an automotive diesel engine will run on it, check it out in tesco's - its a lot cheaper per litre than forecourt diesel, though you would need a pretty big basket to carry out 60 litres to your Golf turbo diesel!!
Bio-diesel is almost as expensive to manufacture as Diesel, the part that makes it cheaper is the lower tax, 0.27p/litre as opposed to 0.4#p something. It also uses some very hazardous chemicals in its manufacture.
Bio-Diesel is usually made from Waste Vegetable Oil, well filtered from the chippy or Chinese!
Diesel engines will run on Straight Vegetable Oil, but there is a problem with viscocity, its just too thick to feed the engine as-is, it needs to be heated before injection. It has been known to clog injectors and break injector pumps (Bosch pumps work well though), as well as increase coking in the cylinders-heads. Peanut, Palm, Rapeseed, Sunflower, Caster and Hemp oil have all been used in Compression Ignition engines with good results.
I would be very surprised to see any vegetable oil based fuel in Aviation use, other than for testing.
The only difference between Avtur and Diesel is (so I'm told) Avtur lacks the lubrication additives needed in modern cars, I may be wrong.
By: - 8th January 2005 at 22:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Bio-diesel is almost as expensive to manufacture as Diesel, the part that makes it cheaper is the lower tax, 0.27p/litre as opposed to 0.4#p something. It also uses some very hazardous chemicals in its manufacture.
Bio-Diesel is usually made from Waste Vegetable Oil, well filtered from the chippy or Chinese!Diesel engines will run on Straight Vegetable Oil, but there is a problem with viscocity, its just too thick to feed the engine as-is, it needs to be heated before injection. It has been known to clog injectors and break injector pumps (Bosch pumps work well though), as well as increase coking in the cylinders-heads. Peanut, Palm, Rapeseed, Sunflower, Caster and Hemp oil have all been used in Compression Ignition engines with good results.
I would be very surprised to see any vegetable oil based fuel in Aviation use, other than for testing.The only difference between Avtur and Diesel is (so I'm told) Avtur lacks the lubrication additives needed in modern cars, I may be wrong.
Interesting information Bigglesworth, I don't know the results of running diesel engines on bio-diesel but I do know that Avtur doesn't possess the same lube additives as diesel.
On a road going diesel engine the injector pump has extremely fine tolerances and runs at very high pressure hence the necessity for lubricant in the fuel that passes through it.
Avtur doesn't have to pass through such a pump, therefore has no lubricant in it, nor does heating oil - I have worked on a few vehicles that have come to grief through using the latter!!
I did read somewhere that the French had a problem with Avtur wearing out an injector pump on an adapted Peugeot diesel engine fitted to a Jodel, they also ran it on diesel fuel mixed 50/50 with used, filtered sump oil - I may be wrong tho...
By: - 9th January 2005 at 00:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting information Bigglesworth, I don't know the results of running diesel engines on bio-diesel but I do know that Avtur doesn't possess the same lube additives as diesel.
On a road going diesel engine the injector pump has extremely fine tolerances and runs at very high pressure hence the necessity for lubricant in the fuel that passes through it.
Avtur doesn't have to pass through such a pump, therefore has no lubricant in it, nor does heating oil - I have worked on a few vehicles that have come to grief through using the latter!!
I did read somewhere that the French had a problem with Avtur wearing out an injector pump on an adapted Peugeot diesel engine fitted to a Jodel, they also ran it on diesel fuel mixed 50/50 with used, filtered sump oil - I may be wrong tho...
Avtur doesn't have that nasty red dye stuff in it either Dave... :D
There are lots of sucessfully SVO converted Peugot engines around on the road.
I hadn't heard about the conversion in the Jodel, interesting that it ran on filtered sump oil. We (family) had two great big old Ruston Hornsby generators that ran on sump oil provided by the local RAF base, they would run on anything...
There is (atleast one) converted Ford Festa in Germany which actually burns its lubricating oil, or rather the fuel was used to lubricate the engine- the result was much reduced wear on components, and no oil changes to worry about.
I have known people to run Diesel cars on a mix of upto 30% Straight Vegetable Oil, without modification (perhaps only in warmer weather due to Viscosity) and without too many problems, not a replacement but an extender.
Engines that are converted to run solely on SVO still need to be started and stopped on Diesel, apparently SVO cloggs injectors and pumps very efficiently.
Mercedes generally have to best reputation for(car and van) Diesel engines running alternative fuels, something to do with combustion chamber design and robustness of injector pump I believe.
In an aircraft the fuel would also need to be kept warm use, which may not be a problem in the airliners since they generate plenty of excess heat, but certainly would be for smaller GA aircraft. A second fuel system would also be needed for startup and shutdown.
Off now to go get the waste MOD Avtur collection contract, and a job-lot of engine oil :D ;)
By: - 9th January 2005 at 23:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=Bigglesworth]Avtur doesn't have that nasty red dye stuff in it either Dave... :D
We (family) had two great big old Ruston Hornsby generators that ran on sump oil provided by the local RAF base, they would run on anything...
There is (atleast one) converted Ford Festa in Germany which actually burns its lubricating oil, or rather the fuel was used to lubricate the engine- the result was much reduced wear on components, and no oil changes to worry about.
Ooooh.. that nasty red stuff - I'm sure there's an antidote!!!!
Seriously tho, if you had Ruston Generators, you must also be aware that the Chieftain tanks could run multifuel although they were spark ignition engines.
At work, on more than one occasion, I have come across worn diesel engines sucking sump oil through the breather system and 'running away' at full chat with no hope of stopping them as the diesel manifold system is 'open' ie no throttle.
The most recent was a few months back when a Rover 400 turbo-diesel snapped the shaft inside the turbo, the free play at the seals allowed full pressure engine oil to travel through the intake system and into the cylinders - the engine 'ran away', the car had to be stopped by braking to a standstill in fifth gear, the engine was pulling like a train right down til it stalled - I didn't dare dip the clutch!!!
By: - 10th January 2005 at 07:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dave,
I have seen a Citroen turbo diesel 'run away' like that - as you described it was burning the turbo & engine lubricating oil - smoke went from white, to brown to blue to black then BANG! Fortunately the driver was running away from it at the time waving the ignition key. When it first started my thoughts were "who is using a disk cutter in the car park"
By: - 10th January 2005 at 22:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dave,I have seen a Citroen turbo diesel 'run away' like that - as you described it was burning the turbo & engine lubricating oil - smoke went from white, to brown to blue to black then BANG! Fortunately the driver was running away from it at the time waving the ignition key. When it first started my thoughts were "who is using a disk cutter in the car park"
Must have been a funny sight Paul!! I haven't seen one 'blow up' but I would have laughed my socks off if I had...
Posts: 1,324
By: galdri - 6th January 2005 at 17:00
It all started out as a joke, but it got me thinking. Some days ago, a friend walked over to my hangar while I was trying to look busy making up ribs for the Gemini stab. After looking at the heap in the corner (the rest of the aircraft :D ), he became very serious. Like he was going to tell me the greatest secret in his live. Then he said 'You know, you will never fly this thing, right? 'Cos when you are finished, there will be no fossil fuel left!' In a way, he has a point. I don't expect AVGAS to be available for all that long, maybe for another 10-15 years tops.
So what is the alternative? I suppose the Gipsys could run on normal unleaded autofuel in the 95 octain band (if lead additives are added?), as they are certified for 87 octain as minimum. But even autofuel has it's days numbered with the ever increasing reaserch into alterative fuels like hydrogen. We even have a couple of buses driving the streets here in Reykjavik that are hydrogen powered.
How about Methanol? Would that be a viable alternate fuel for the old generation of engines? IIRC there was a formation display team flying Methanol powered RV-3's in the states in the early '90's. I also remember seeing a Cessna C-180 at Oshkos in '99 that was Methanol powered. In a leafet I got then, but have sadly lost, it was stated that Methanol only required a different ignition timing and special spark plugs. This is from memory, so might be wrong. If it is so easy to use Methanol, why the urgency in developing diesel engines for light aircraft?
Over to you!