Shoot to Kill on GA?

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20 years 6 months

Posts: 253

Carried over from the Historic thread a slightly misplaced, but interesting, posting about a TRA that has been established over London since the terror attacks of 7th July. Now its hard to see how a simple aviation rule will stop a bomber on a mission to hit a London target with a light aircraft. So it begs the question "What happens if an aircraft strays into the TRA?". Is there a shoot down policy? If so how? Ground to air? It will certainly sharpen the mind when flying near the TMA!!!

Thoughts anyone?

Original post

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 16,832

It's partly to keep the newshounds from bumping into each other in the quest to get the best shots of mangled corpses, but mostly simply being seen to do something.

Remember Hungerford. Bloke runs amok with a handgun and an assault rifle, both of which are strictly controlled under UK law.

In the aftermath 'Dim' Duggie Hurd, the home secretary, brings in swingeing legislation against shotguns, not one of which was involved in the incident.

It just provides a simple answer to the question "What are the government doing about....."

Moggy

Member for

20 years 6 months

Posts: 253

Good point, I hadn't thought about the news choppers. Like you say its sure to be a knee jerk by Old Tony to be seen to be doing something at least.

We just had the conversation here - chilling thought but if you wanted to bring down a 747 over populated London then all you'd need to do is buy something fast(ish) and chase said airliner down the LHR 09 ILS for a mid air. I fly all the time into and out of LHR so I shouldn't have these thoughts. Same as that light aircraft that had the mid air with the 727 I think in LA..

:(

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 16,832

It's much like the French ZITs around their nuclear power station. ISTR they are only a couple of miles in diameter and nobody infringing them, and there have been a few, has yet had a missile up the tailpipe.

Mind you the fines are apparently pretty eye-watering.

But two miles at 12 knots is less than a minute.. not much time to do anything about an intruder really.

Light aircraft v 747. Chilling thought.

Moggy

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19 years 2 months

Posts: 650

As a low-hours PPL, nonetheless determined to get things right, I'm horrified that I've been flying around the home counties blissfully unaware of the restriction for the last couple of weeks!

Even now, having checked again NOTAMs, route NOTAMs, AIPs, AICs and everything else, I can't find a single reference to these restrictions - at least that my limited intelligence can understand!!

My first thought (after relief that I don't think I've busted anything!) is that the NATS online AIS briefing service can't be up to much, if something that important and basic for our legality and safety can't be located.

Secondly - where the heck do I find this information?????

Surely its time to have the system designed, so we don't all need to be codebreakers worthy of Bletchley Park to get the basic information to keep us legal and safe.

Or am I really being stupid???

Member for

20 years 6 months

Posts: 253

GASML,

Well I heard about it here, but I'm very lost - I'm in Buenos Aires!!

:-)

Member for

19 years 2 months

Posts: 650

A bit beyond the normal operating range for a 55hp Luton Minor I'm afraid!!

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 16,832

As a low-hours PPL, nonetheless determined to get things right, I'm horrified that I've been flying around the home counties blissfully unaware of the restriction for the last couple of weeks!

You can start with the front page of the NATS site, but I agree, not exactly shouting out.

Have you tried Notamplot? I haven't. My copy is at home.

EDIT: Somebody has just confirmed that Notamplot shows it plainly.

Moggy

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Posts: 2,606

Don't think there is a shoot to down policy for GA. There are certainly no SAMs (may be one at the war museum!). Only chance may be for a Tornado to stick a Sidewinder up your cowling but how long is the reaction time?

I quote liked that car sticker that goes alogn the lines of "Beware the Cessna 150. 90kts and 1000 pounds of screaming terror!"

Member for

20 years 6 months

Posts: 253

I guess any aircraft on the ILS would not only be warned by Heathrow approach of an "intruder" but I guess they would also see it creeping up on their TCAS. Question is if a 747 with all the bits hanging out could get itself out of the way fast enough. I'm sure it could out run most traditional light aircraft in fairly short order if they pushed the levers forward in a hurry....

As for reaction time for a Tornado, well I'm not even sure where the closest operational base is from London?

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 16,832

I guess any aircraft on the ILS would not only be warned by Heathrow approach of an "intruder" but I guess they would also see it creeping up on their TCAS. Question is if a 747 with all the bits hanging out could get itself out of the way fast enough. I'm sure it could out run most traditional light aircraft in fairly short order if they pushed the levers forward in a hurry....

Far be it from me to assist the ungodly but faced with the same issue I'd use a Seneca head-on.

No point in trying to chase a big jet, far better to add the closing speeds together.

Moggy

Member for

20 years 6 months

Posts: 253

Oh go on could you use a Piper Tomahawk. Trying to find a very small silver lining to what would be a very dark cloud...

The terrible thing is that this is possible. With low investment (rent a flying club aircraft) you could bring down a packed 747 over central/west London. I'd like to get a professional pilots opinion on it and see if its dawned on anyone to think up a "best course of action in this situation would be..."

Steady steady then a last minute pull up I guess. Risk damage to the underside/UC rather than risk losing the cockpit area / tail...

Hope we are the only people to have thought of this..

:(

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20 years

Posts: 3,031

Heat seeking missles'd be no good against a Minor - the hottest heat source would be the pilot working hard!

Seriously though luckily the only times we hear of an airliner being brought down by a light aircraft is in an accident situation and even those seem very distant memories now.

Be assured Taifun you can almost guarantee that we aren't the only ones to have considered it. At the moment such an act on packed 747 would be terrible - what would it be like when the A380 comes into service?

Member for

19 years 2 months

Posts: 650

You can start with the front page of the NATS site, but I agree, not exactly shouting out.

Have you tried Notamplot? I haven't. My copy is at home.

EDIT: Somebody has just confirmed that Notamplot shows it plainly.

Moggy

Many thanks! Notamplot now installed and in use!

Isn't it a bit dumb that we need to rely on third-party softwear to allow us to interpret safety information when NATS have spent tens of millions on their computer installations?

Or should I just not go there????

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 16,832

Isn't it a bit dumb that we need to rely on third-party softwear to allow us to interpret safety information when NATS have spent tens of millions on their computer installations?

Or should I just not go there????

Er... Yes to both those questions :)

Just thank the Lord for Ian Fallon who wrote Notamplot for the benefit of others and distributes it free.

Top bloke.

Moggy