By: Dragonfly
- 17th June 2009 at 11:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Whilst not wishing to play devil's advocate or apportion blame may I suggest that one or both pilots were not keeping as good a look out as they should in what is a relatively busy patch of sky at weekends, and even busier last weekend as there were gliding championships taking place too whiic always increases aerial activity around this area regardless of where they are being held.
Not being contrary here but do remember that Gliders especially are VERY hard to see at times. The slender fuselages and wings make them hard to spot against almost anything from any distance, only when the sun flashes off the tops of the wings in banking are they easy(er) to see.
In response to the side-by-side seating thing thare are +ves and -ves (I fly in a very simmilar aircraft to the Grob). The person next to you does make it harder to the side, however it is possible to see round them and out the back and ront for both people. The side-by-side also makes training easier as the student can more easily see what the instructor is doing and vice-versa.
By: bazv
- 17th June 2009 at 12:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How about red, yellow or blue then (and no I'm not being fascetious) - bands across the wings and around the fuselage like the yellow (or white bands?) on the black Tucanos seen at airshows?
Anything to give a contrast to make the Tutors (and white civilian gliders too) more conspicuous angainst a uniform sky background.
Or is it paint of any sort that increases degradation of the composites?
Paul F
It is the temperature rise caused by dark colours absorbing light/heat,the skin temp difference between (say) a white and red area is considerable.
It would be the a/c design authority who would limit the colour and size/position of any conspicuity panels.
My old composite glider had red nose,wingtip and rudder areas to try and give some conspicuity/contrast.
By: BIGVERN1966
- 17th June 2009 at 18:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ATC Viking Gliders have had large Dayglo orange bands on the wings for a while. If it can be done on a Grob Glider, It can be done on a Grob Aircraft. However, I don't think the lack of colour on the Tutor plays a part in either of the accidents which have happened to AEF aircraft this year. Lack of any colour on the Glider which was hit from below is another story (there are a number of photo's of that aircraft on the net).
By: Rlangham
- 18th June 2009 at 09:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I once flew in an ATC Grob Vigilant which had the large dayglo bands on the wings (i've flown 2 or 3 others which didn't have them) - the pilot mentioned he wasn't keen on them as they disrupted the outline of the aircraft when viewed at a distance
By: bazv
- 18th June 2009 at 15:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ATC Viking Gliders have had large Dayglo orange bands on the wings for a while. If it can be done on a Grob Glider, It can be done on a Grob Aircraft. However, I don't think the lack of colour on the Tutor plays a part in either of the accidents which have happened to AEF aircraft this year. Lack of any colour on the Glider which was hit from below is another story (there are a number of photo's of that aircraft on the net).
The ATC glider dayglow panels are not universally liked,and to me they do not seem very dark/bright anyway.
I absolutely agree that the lack of colour on grobs is unlikely to be a major contribution to the 2 ATC accidents...however it is in my view a very poor colour scheme,because the coloured areas are blue which is one of the least conspicuous colours available.
By: spitfireman
- 22nd June 2009 at 23:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Cirrus 22 is fitted with a ballistic parachute system called CAPS, it has been used in anger a few times and works very well, bringing the aeroplane and crew safely down to earth together. It's not a very big system and they are being fitted to more and more different types of aircraft. I have flown as a passenger in chipmunks, bulldogs and navy grobs since the early 70s and realistically I doubt very much in most emergencies I would have abandoned any in a double quick time. Most of these flights operate below 5,000' giving aircrews little time to escape effectively (let alone novices)
It may now be time to look at this system and if possible retro fit it to our tutor/grob fleet.
It pains me to see another tragic loss.
Please don't chastise me for my opinion ( it may be tosh, but it's my tosh)
By: bazv
- 23rd June 2009 at 12:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Cirrus 22 is fitted with a ballistic parachute system called CAPS, it has been used in anger a few times and works very well, bringing the aeroplane and crew safely down to earth together. It's not a very big system and they are being fitted to more and more different types of aircraft. I have flown as a passenger in chipmunks, bulldogs and navy grobs since the early 70s and realistically I doubt very much in most emergencies I would have abandoned any in a double quick time. Most of these flights operate below 5,000' giving aircrews little time to escape effectively (let alone novices)
It may now be time to look at this system and if possible retro fit it to our tutor/grob fleet.
It pains me to see another tragic loss.
Please don't chastise me for my opinion ( it may be tosh, but it's my tosh)
Baz
Hi Baz
I have never sat in a Tutor but I have heard that the canopy jettison system is perhaps not ideal,and perhaps not as good as the Bulldog system.
As you say...now that ballistic rescue systems have matured a bit perhaps they could be considered for the tutor replacement,but i would guess they really have to be an integral part of an a/c design,would it would be possible to retrofit to an a/c structure ?? also the tutor is not overblessed in power/weight ratio anyway.
By: spitfireman
- 24th June 2009 at 00:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Baz
I have never sat in a Tutor but I have heard that the canopy jettison system is perhaps not ideal,and perhaps not as good as the Bulldog system.
As you say...now that ballistic rescue systems have matured a bit perhaps they could be considered for the tutor replacement,but i would guess they really have to be an integral part of an a/c design,would it would be possible to retrofit to an a/c structure ?? also the tutor is not overblessed in power/weight ratio anyway.
cheers baz
Don't see why not.
I was looking at this system fitted to a cirrus and another on a (ultralight?) Gorilla. It didn't look that heavy and you can redeem some weight by not having individual chutes etc.
By: bazv
- 24th June 2009 at 07:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't see why not.
I was looking at this system fitted to a cirrus and another on a (ultralight?) Gorilla. It didn't look that heavy and you can redeem some weight by not having individual chutes etc.
cheers baz
Mounting points,structural modifications/strong points,storage space(for system),weight and CofG,positioning of system for safe deployment taking into account all of above....may not be that easy on a light a/c with a sliding canopy !
By: spitfireman
- 24th June 2009 at 16:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mounting points,structural modifications/strong points,storage space(for system),weight and CofG,positioning of system for safe deployment taking into account all of above....may not be that easy on a light a/c with a sliding canopy !
regards baz
I'm not an engineer or a designer, more of a dreamer who often talks tosh, however, if you throw enough money (and beer) at a problem, engineers often come up with solutions. Ballistic parachutes are the way forward.
By: Primate
- 28th June 2009 at 09:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
AFAIK, the CAPS in the Cirrus SR-series aircraft has been used with both success and failure (involving fatalities) a number of times. It (or similar systems) might be an option for other aircraft types as well in the future, but one should be aware that it does not guarantee for survival. If possible, a forced landing is often preferrable.
Regarding aircraft colour-/contrast markings; how effective are they?
After what I've heard, orange colour stripes often used on white fiberglass gliders have not been reported as effective.
Posts: 1,084
By: Paul F - 17th June 2009 at 10:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
AEF Flights resumed as at 09:45 today
My brother, who is an Air Cadet instructor in West Sussex Wing tells me AEF has been resumed as of this morning.
Paul F
Posts: 81
By: Dragonfly - 17th June 2009 at 11:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not being contrary here but do remember that Gliders especially are VERY hard to see at times. The slender fuselages and wings make them hard to spot against almost anything from any distance, only when the sun flashes off the tops of the wings in banking are they easy(er) to see.
In response to the side-by-side seating thing thare are +ves and -ves (I fly in a very simmilar aircraft to the Grob). The person next to you does make it harder to the side, however it is possible to see round them and out the back and ront for both people. The side-by-side also makes training easier as the student can more easily see what the instructor is doing and vice-versa.
M
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 17th June 2009 at 12:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is the temperature rise caused by dark colours absorbing light/heat,the skin temp difference between (say) a white and red area is considerable.
It would be the a/c design authority who would limit the colour and size/position of any conspicuity panels.
My old composite glider had red nose,wingtip and rudder areas to try and give some conspicuity/contrast.
cheers baz
Posts: 1,179
By: BIGVERN1966 - 17th June 2009 at 18:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ATC Viking Gliders have had large Dayglo orange bands on the wings for a while. If it can be done on a Grob Glider, It can be done on a Grob Aircraft. However, I don't think the lack of colour on the Tutor plays a part in either of the accidents which have happened to AEF aircraft this year. Lack of any colour on the Glider which was hit from below is another story (there are a number of photo's of that aircraft on the net).
Posts: 2,757
By: Rlangham - 18th June 2009 at 09:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I once flew in an ATC Grob Vigilant which had the large dayglo bands on the wings (i've flown 2 or 3 others which didn't have them) - the pilot mentioned he wasn't keen on them as they disrupted the outline of the aircraft when viewed at a distance
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 18th June 2009 at 15:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The ATC glider dayglow panels are not universally liked,and to me they do not seem very dark/bright anyway.
I absolutely agree that the lack of colour on grobs is unlikely to be a major contribution to the 2 ATC accidents...however it is in my view a very poor colour scheme,because the coloured areas are blue which is one of the least conspicuous colours available.
Posts: 2,766
By: spitfireman - 22nd June 2009 at 23:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Cirrus 22 is fitted with a ballistic parachute system called CAPS, it has been used in anger a few times and works very well, bringing the aeroplane and crew safely down to earth together. It's not a very big system and they are being fitted to more and more different types of aircraft. I have flown as a passenger in chipmunks, bulldogs and navy grobs since the early 70s and realistically I doubt very much in most emergencies I would have abandoned any in a double quick time. Most of these flights operate below 5,000' giving aircrews little time to escape effectively (let alone novices)
It may now be time to look at this system and if possible retro fit it to our tutor/grob fleet.
It pains me to see another tragic loss.
Please don't chastise me for my opinion ( it may be tosh, but it's my tosh)
Baz
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 23rd June 2009 at 12:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Baz
I have never sat in a Tutor but I have heard that the canopy jettison system is perhaps not ideal,and perhaps not as good as the Bulldog system.
As you say...now that ballistic rescue systems have matured a bit perhaps they could be considered for the tutor replacement,but i would guess they really have to be an integral part of an a/c design,would it would be possible to retrofit to an a/c structure ?? also the tutor is not overblessed in power/weight ratio anyway.
cheers baz
Posts: 2,766
By: spitfireman - 24th June 2009 at 00:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't see why not.
I was looking at this system fitted to a cirrus and another on a (ultralight?) Gorilla. It didn't look that heavy and you can redeem some weight by not having individual chutes etc.
cheers baz
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 24th June 2009 at 07:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mounting points,structural modifications/strong points,storage space(for system),weight and CofG,positioning of system for safe deployment taking into account all of above....may not be that easy on a light a/c with a sliding canopy !
regards baz
Posts: 2,766
By: spitfireman - 24th June 2009 at 16:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm not an engineer or a designer, more of a dreamer who often talks tosh, however, if you throw enough money (and beer) at a problem, engineers often come up with solutions. Ballistic parachutes are the way forward.
cheers Baz
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 24th June 2009 at 18:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I totally agree baz,I just think that a retrofit to an existing design may not be that easy.
cheers baz
Posts: 527
By: Primate - 28th June 2009 at 09:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
AFAIK, the CAPS in the Cirrus SR-series aircraft has been used with both success and failure (involving fatalities) a number of times. It (or similar systems) might be an option for other aircraft types as well in the future, but one should be aware that it does not guarantee for survival. If possible, a forced landing is often preferrable.
Regarding aircraft colour-/contrast markings; how effective are they?
After what I've heard, orange colour stripes often used on white fiberglass gliders have not been reported as effective.