WikiLeaks

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I only endorse the part of Distillers post as indicated, apologies for any confusion. I take your point on board. However as I said, the WikiLeaks situation is just an example of the point I'm trying to get across. Leaving aside the 'tussle' with the Swedes, and the 'headless chicken' type actions of the US over the organization, I still stand by my view that there is the possibility of the WikiLeaks situation being used by the unscrupulous to clamp down on certain types of activity on the net and in other areas of the media, thus resulting in further curtailment of individual rights. There's nothing conspiratorial about that at all. Anyhow, I'll have to leave my 'corner' undefended until 4th Jan as I'm offline until then. Happy Xmas to allcon :)

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Just also spare a thought to what he has been charged with
I'm a father. I'm sure alot of you guys are
Would you like someone to sexually assualt your daughter, then turn around and claim it political? It may be, it may not be. But if its not, seeing hundreds protest over it would feel pretty bad, wouldn't it?

Did Clinton,a US president get away with sexual misconduct by saying its political?

So why should assange?

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Just also spare a thought to what he has been charged with....

"Accused of".

Not "charged with". Not "tried for". Not "found guilty of".

Quite a big difference.

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Accused of:rolleyes:

These are NOT the sort of allegations woman make lightly. You dont apply for an extradition for nothing, or with no evidence. Making it out as made up for political gains is insulting to the women involved, and should not be done until it is proved otherwise. and whatever did happen is not an excuse for Assange(the arrogant person ever) to try and duck his responsibility. If its so unfounded, dont fight the extradition, head back, and prove your innocence. why fight it?

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Interflug - A very happy Christmas to you as well.:)

And F111 you make some salient points, but all of this is better left to let the law take its course and then we will all find out the truth of it all. Otherwise we spend wasted words on speculation which achieves little.

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Did Clinton,a US president get away with sexual misconduct by saying its political?

No, he said something along the lines of "I did not have sex with that woman"...

;)

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Because by some presidential quirk, cobbled together by the Clinton lawyers, the act in which he participated did not constitute "sex". Ah, well, one law for a president, another for the rest of us....:rolleyes:

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You dont apply for an extradition for nothing, or with no evidence.
Oh, I wish I lived in your world. I really do. :cool:
Making it out as made up for political gains is insulting to the women involved, and should not be done until it is proved otherwise....

Whereas pretending that someone who has not, as yet, been charged with any crime has in fact been so charged isn't at all insulting? Double standards, my friend. And the reporting of this case is rife with them.

Now, I don't know whether Assange is guilty of the accusations levelled against him - any more than you do.

He certainly doesn't come across as a very pleasant individual, but that isn't the same thing as being guilty of sexual assault.

But the more you dig into the known facts surrounding the case the stronger it smells, and I'm far from being the only person here who thinks so.

Why not trying doing a little digging yourself?

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Alternatively let's shoulder our spades and wait for the facts to be argued in a court of law. No digging I am aware of will reveal anything other than heresay, second and third hand reporting and half-truths.

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From my view, it is a) good for average people to read how politics are done beyond the journalistic speculation, b) the risk of leaking may serve to mitigate some completely ruthless political decisions, since the only thing that politicians are afraid of, is political cost. A politician who is afraid that his not so moral directives may one day leak to the public, will think it twice before doing it, c) it is something that enhances transparency and judgment of the politicians by the people. For example if pubblically a politician claims one position and in leaked documents appears doing the opposite, this is something good for the voters to know.

I can agree on much of this. Given a sufficiently responsible behaviour (self-cencorship etc.), WikiLeaks may have a positive role to play in my eyes. This however isn't the issue I was trying to raise.

Yes, apparently they pubblish pretty much everything, important or not, but i don't really care.

(...)

The US does declassify documents after many years (about 30 i think more or less), but only some and in those there are censored parts, which usually are also the most interesting. It would be great to have them uncensored.

This is one issue about WikiLeaks which concerns me a bit. Apparently they seem willing to hand out material which might be connected to security issues for individuals and/or countries. Can they be trusted to take proper precautions before releasing potentially sensitive information (and I mean "sensitive" in terms of e.g. security, not embarrassment)?

Wikileaks has the advantage of releasing contemporary documents. I am sure the US gov will take measures to increase safety for at least the confidential files, but in meantime, i enjoy wikileaks for as long as it lasts.

Regarding some of the material related to Afghanistan, I'm not really sure if unfinished and potentially flawed reports/raw data necessarily will be of good value for the average citizen. I'm think that the use (and risks) of releasing such information can be discussed.

Yes, WikiLeaks' actions might lead to attempts to increase information security here and there, potentially leading to less transparency in the future. Diplomatic correspondence might suffer due to a lack of trust. In the end, is this really good for the public?

How would you feel if someone released information which could compromise your safety?

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This is one issue about WikiLeaks which concerns me a bit. Apparently they seem willing to hand out material which might be connected to security issues for individuals and/or countries. Can they be trusted to take proper precautions before releasing potentially sensitive information (and I mean "sensitive" in terms of e.g. security, not embarrassment)?

This is in deed a question, to which i have no answer... The only "safe" way for the US goverment on this subject, is... guard better the confidential files so that they don't leak. Theoretically, yes, they may leak sensitive information or even names of people that may end up in big trouble if they are in foreign soil. This is why i said that for the US gov obviously this is a bad thing. They have to rely on Assange's team judgement on what is "sensitive". Of course there is already some diplomatic damage, because when for example you describe foreign leaders with diminishing descriptions, it is not something you like. But the diplomatic damage can be repaired. Security issues as you say are the main problem...


Regarding some of the material related to Afghanistan, I'm not really sure if unfinished and potentially flawed reports/raw data necessarily will be of good value for the average citizen. I'm think that the use (and risks) of releasing such information can be discussed.

Yes, WikiLeaks' actions might lead to attempts to increase information security here and there, potentially leading to less transparency in the future. Diplomatic correspondence might suffer due to a lack of trust. In the end, is this really good for the public?

How would you feel if someone released information which could compromise your safety?

As with every piece of news, Wikileaks must also be read critically. a) They are not "truth", they are evaluation of situations or reports of events from a US point of view , b) the reader must try to correlate what he knows from other newsources to what he reads in Wikileaks and get a picture of his own.

I think, more ways of information are always good. Even if it doesn't last for long. Up to now, there was no other similar event anyway, so there won't be lost some transparency i think. I mean, before, the citizen couldn't even see a confidential report of contemporary events anyway, so if they close the leak now, it will simply be like before, nothing lost.

To me, it is difficult to say what is good or bad for the average US citizen. Because they are events concerning his own goverment. As an outsider, i like Wikileaks. I also think that many Americans will benefit from reading the line of thought behind political decisions. I have the general idea that Americans trust a bit too much the official versions of the politicians, reading Wikileaks helps in understanding better the way the politicians think. I mean, it's not like they will discover some ultrasecret operation, but for example, even by the leaks about the Brazilian AF competition, one can see how closely weapons companies and politicians work. As a matter of fact, diplomats work as promoters of the weapons companies. It then comes natural to think what kind of political ramifications weapons sales have.

For my domestic (greek) public, it's certainly good! Greeks love such information and may even help mitigate a bit the conspiracy theorists. In Greece there is a conspiracy about everything. I mean, if you read blogs or fora, there are always people that have thought of the impossible, to the point that after reading so many plots, you become oversuspicious about everything. They even dispute events that seem pretty solid or they don't have other logical alternatives. A leak, finally puts an end to some of these theorists, so that you don't have to read or prove wrong every single weird theory by some lunatic. We have a joke about it: "There are only 2 countries in the world where intelligence services can't operate efficiently: In Israel, because nobody talks and in Greece, because everyone talks*".

I think i 'd give a definitely positive vote on the utility of wikileaks for the US reader too, if they were released 5 years from the event.

(*Except in cases of scandals that involve both ruling parties, in which case, even if we hear about it at some point, they both become Israelis and work together to burry the issue).

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Oh, I wish I lived in your world. I really do. :cool:

Whereas pretending that someone who has not, as yet, been charged with any crime has in fact been so charged isn't at all insulting? Double standards, my friend. And the reporting of this case is rife with them.

Now, I don't know whether Assange is guilty of the accusations levelled against him - any more than you do.

He certainly doesn't come across as a very pleasant individual, but that isn't the same thing as being guilty of sexual assault.

But the more you dig into the known facts surrounding the case the stronger it smells, and I'm far from being the only person here who thinks so.

Why not trying doing a little digging yourself?

Oh, I wish I lived in your world. I really do. :cool:

You really think Sweden is that much of an ally of the US to make this stuff up?
If you were talking about the UK under past regimes when it was a friend to the US, perhaps, but I don't think Sweden is ...or ever has been that close.

Can you prove the charges are trumped up?
Of course not.
It's just that this guys defenders will say anything to get him off...whether he's a pervert or not.
Claiming a impossible to prove political conspiracy is the last refuge of scoundrels (see the Tommy Sheridan trial whre he claimed to the the victim of another vast conspiracy because of his opposition to the Poll Tax and everyone's favorite bad guy Margaret Thatcher)
and those who want to believe what they want to believe...ie the "West" is bad, and it's their fault all the bad things happen in the world.
If you really want to believe this stuff...be my guest.

Gee, if only the world were run by the Soviets, such nice folks, Stalin and the North Koreans...I'm so happy you and Interflug62M seem to to think they were the "good guys".
Sugestion, go to a RAF/SAS reunion and tell the guys that actualy served during the cold war they were as bad as the Soviets.

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My very best wishes to Mr. Assange in his attempts to stay a free man, and to avoid becoming yet another sacrifice on the altar of "Homeland Security"

Im not sure what leaking stolen documents have to do with making the "homeland security" the new default bad guy (since Bush is out of office).
I'd ask you to remember that the Obama administration is hardly "right wing."..well perhaps compared to the the "good old days" of the GDR, it might be. ;)


I have always said that during the Cold War, the antics of both sides were the same, it was just the badges worn by the perpetrators that were different.

A bit nostalgic the Stasi are we? ;)

Your opinion that the US (and NATO) was as bad as the Soviets as laughable (or at least it would be if so many people ignorant of the facts believed it).
If you're German, ask a former GDR citizen where they would have preferred to live. ;). And I'll wait while you come up with an American president who was as evil as Stalin...and on such a scale. Mass murders, purges, starvation? I didn't read about it.

Yes, the USA did spying and other bits of skullduggery.
You can't awlays fight by Marquis of Queensbury rules.
WWII proved that, where civilized countries had to do very uncivilized things to defeat a foe that was even worse.

Profile picture for user Grey Area

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You really think Sweden is that much of an ally of the US to make this stuff up?
Where did I say that? Care to quote me?
Can you prove the charges are trumped up?
There have been no charges up to the time of writing, just accusations. That's sort of the point, actually.
Gee, if only the world were run by the Soviets, such nice folks, Stalin and the North Koreans...I'm so happy you and Interflug62M seem to to think they were the "good guys".
You can, of course, quote me saying that as well?

If not, then I'd really like you to apologise for putting such ludicrous words into my mouth.

Sugestion, go to a RAF/SAS reunion and tell the guys that actualy served during the cold war they were as bad as the Soviets.
And now we have an Internet Tough Guy By Proxy.

You're better than this, Mr B.

You really are. :(

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Where did I say that? Care to quote me?

He certainly doesn't come across as a very pleasant individual, but that isn't the same thing as being guilty of sexual assault.

But the more you dig into the known facts surrounding the case the stronger it smells, and I'm far from being the only person here who thinks so.


There have been no charges up to the time of writing, just accusations. That's sort of the point, actually.

The Swdish civil authorities charged him, after all he was jailed in your own country, I'll assume the UK police (unless they're on the CIA payroll too) wouldn't jail someone unless there had been a certain level of charges being made. So you're saying the CIA has power over both Swedish and UK police? Wow, we're more clever than I thought. ;)


If not, then I'd really like you to apologise for putting such ludicrous words into my mouth.
And now we have an Internet Tough Guy By Proxy.

I won't apologise. See post 149 and you certainly make your thoughts on America very clear in post 133.
Your sentiments are very clear...you're just clever enough not to directly say what you mean...as usual. It doesn't take a psychic to get what you infer and what your feelings are.
And as far as being an "Internet tough guy" you're the moderator and I certainly expect reprisals...rather like Mr Assange is facing. What will be be...being banned, my subscription being cancelled? Or better yet, have me barred from entering the country (rather like conservative nutcase political author Michael Savage...so it seems the UK has some standards too..not as "open" to dissenting voices as we're led to believe) because I dare to stick up for the US, which has been a pretty good friend to the UK (at least since 1812).
Perhaps you're part of the conspiracy too.:D We just booked a flight...I wonder if BA will give me my money back?


You're better than this, Mr B.
You really are. :(

Thank you..as are you.
You're certainly more seasoned in life to believe a conspiracy without any proof.
Please show me where the mighty and sinister USA has a hold over the Sweden.
You can't. So my opinions are as vaid as your suppositions.

We're still friends...whether you like it or not. :)
It's only politics, not real life.

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I'm certainly not going to justify or defend fairytales and phantoms of your imagining, Mr B.

Nor will I waste time defending myself against ludicrous smears that belong to the era of McCarthy.

The facts in this case remain as they are, and are readily verifiable via multiple sources.

Whether you like it or not doesn't come into the equation.

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The facts of the case are as in my post 141, I believe. But please correct me if there are other facts, rather than hearsay, speculation, or interpretation, in the public domain.

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Post #141 was, and remains, an elegantly concise summary of the status quo - with the sole exception that formal charges (rather than accusations currently under active investigation) have yet to be made.

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Thank you - your correction is well made and I have edited my post 141 accordingly.