By: waco
- 7th April 2012 at 22:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Creaking Door
I do not seek to mis represent you.
If you feel that I have I apologise.
I simply make the point that as I see it. There are different rules in the UK For those that have wealth and influence compared with rest of the populus.
I also champion major changes to the justice system that will enable all to enjoy the benefits of the law.
It is my humble opinion that very little real democracy practicly exists in the UK today.
Further unless we seek changes to the current status quo the outlook for UK will be dire.
We are creating a society where millions of people are becoming impoverished. If you have millions of people with "nothing to loose" then a collapse in society as we know it WILL occur.
By: paul178
- 7th April 2012 at 23:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Paul
What happens when you get it wrong.....ie the Birmingham 4 ?
Would you have executed the children in the Bulger case?
What would you do if a member of UK armed forces did what was alleged to have been recently done by the American Sargent?
If it was proved that the police were responsible for deaths at Hillsborough ? Execute them ?
Birmingham 4 I still have my doubts about them.
Bulger case. No they were children but they would still be locked up today.
Armed Forces. I would execute him if he was sane.
Hillsborough That was a monumental **** up with no intent of killing anyone. I would like to see those responsible brought to book though. How about all the fans that did the pushing and trampling did they not also have to live with what some of them did that day?
My answers may be clouded by the fact that I was a Soldier in NI during the troubles.
By: waco
- 7th April 2012 at 23:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok Paul
Thanks for your thoughts. Especially for your comments regarding your NI service.
Must have been something very traumatic and since I have never gone through such experiance it is impossible for me to understand what you and your colleagues went through.
My point is......If you codify the legal system properly. Written consitution, bill of rights etc etc you can then put forward a bill which says :
You do A........ B is the result.
Whilst I might not agree with that. If it is voted for by a proper democratic process (please not first pass the post)...then so be it!
By: Creaking Door
- 7th April 2012 at 23:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Would you please consider answering the question?
Gladly.
If a member of a "club" causes damage but pays for the damage later.
Should the person concerned be prosecuted? Yes or no ?
If the ‘victim’ is happy to let the matter drop, after the damage has been paid for, then no I don’t think they should be prosecuted; but only in the matter of criminal damage. If there was any violence or abuse involved then the guilty shouldn’t be allowed to buy their way out of trouble. This would apply equally to the members of the Bullingdon Club or any other club or individual.
By: waco
- 7th April 2012 at 23:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Creaking Door
So....and feel free to correct me if I have this wrong.
A member of the recent riots goes back to a shop, apologises and pays for the damage. This apology is accepted by the shop owner. Said rioter should not be punished further.
In know way what so ever do I seek to misrepresent you. I simply seek your opinion.
By: Creaking Door
- 7th April 2012 at 23:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In respect of the single shop-owner and payment for all damage and looted goods I wouldn’t really have a problem with that; however that scenario is unlikely to be that uncomplicated.
You’d have to take account of the little-old-lady that lived in the flat above the shop who may not have been physically injured or had any property stolen but may have been scared out of her wits; the likelihood of this ‘collateral damage’ being greatly magnified if there were five, fifty or five-hundred rioters.
Also how do you ‘pay for’ the damage to this country’s image internationally, with the images of the riots being flashed-round the world’s TV screens just a few months before the Olympics? How do you ‘pay for’ large areas of our major cities being no-go areas for days on end?
In identical circumstances I’d expect the law to be applied equally, irrespective of the wealth of the accused; hasn’t a millionaire’s daughter just been convicted of offences during the riots?
By: jbritchford
- 8th April 2012 at 00:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well..... lets start with the following
A written constitution.
A bill of rights.
An elected second chamber.
Excess to the law for people on modest means.
Revision of the tax laws. simplyfying the process and closing all loopholes for the rich.
Elected Chief Constables.
End to the "first past the post system".
As for any form of capital punishment. I thought we had grown up a little as a society and got away from all that barbaric nonsence.
If you ever have to resort to such actions it just means society has failed completly and we are going back hundreds of years.
With regard to jail sentences, just look at the US system. This has resulted in the vast majority of cases being settled by "plea bargin". This has in turn resulted in lots of miscarriges of justice and plenty of people wrongfully imprisioned since they become afaid of challenging crazy long sentences.
Lets concentrate on getting people back to work. If people are working and earning then crime will reduce.
A lot of the problems you mention here are because of the remedies that you suggest. Having elected Police or Court officials inevitably results in a race for who can be 'toughest on crime', resulting in absurd sentences and a desire to convict not based on evidence but to keep the statistics looking good for the re-election.
Also, I wouldn't be too quick to get rid of the House of Lords, they are merely an advisory house made up of experts, and their input is often valuable. Given that the Commons can override them anyway with the Parliament Act, getting in more politicians who are purely there for the gravy train for our upper house would be pointless.
By: waco
- 8th April 2012 at 00:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OK......
I shall now withdraw myself from this particulat thread.
As I do so may I just make the following comments.
I apologise unreservedly for upsetting any forumite with my comments. This is unintended, honestly.
I believe that there are too many fundimntal injustices presently within UK society. I also believe that if these injustices are not addressed the future for UK society is grim in the extream. Further i am of the opinion that the effects on UK society will be felt in the very near future.
I believe the best way to improve UK society is two fold
AA/ Get as many people back to work and as quickly as possible
BB/ We must do something about the greed in modern society.
I think at Easter time these are appropriate matters to be considered.
Good night, god bless and as Dave Allen used to say....."may your god go with you".
By: Creaking Door
- 8th April 2012 at 00:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok, why do you think the riots occured?
My view, and I stress that this is just my opinion, is that, for a brief period, certain sections of the population realised that there simply weren’t enough police to prevent them from rioting, looting and committing arson if they wanted to; as to why they wanted to, well, if their own morality wasn’t holding them back (and evidently it wasn’t), why wouldn’t they? I imagine it was all very exciting, running amok, taking whatever they could get their hands-on, destroying stuff, and without morality and (it seemed) consequences, why not?
I also think there were more organised criminal-gangs involved in large-scale thefts during the riots, and possibly even in starting rioting as a cover for such large-scale thefts; all helped along by the ability to communicate securely and rapidly via smart-phones. The news-media also providing a virtually instantaneous ‘blue-print’ for those in unaffected areas to copy the rioting; ‘why should they get-away with that and not us?’
Society holds together because the vast majority of people believe in the rule-of-law; they don’t loot because it is wrong, not because the police stop them.
By: tornado64
- 8th April 2012 at 08:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How about all the fans that did the pushing and trampling did they not also have to live with what some of them did that day?
.
that was an unavoidable situation . the fans cannot be held responsible in any form they were being fed into an unescapeable cattle pen continuosly with no escape route
By: Lincoln 7
- 8th April 2012 at 09:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Our judicial system seems to work fine as it is.
With respect, you seem not to have been at the sharp end for 30yrs as I, and many others have, otherwise, perchance your opinion that there is no problem with the way it is, would not have been stated.
Jim.
Lincoln. 7
By: hampden98
- 8th April 2012 at 09:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
On the Post, Trolls beware. I mentioned bringing back the "Cat O Nine tails" This may have been flogged to death, pardon the pun, but in your opinion, is our Juditial System long overdue for a radical overhaul?.
If a person has been sentenced to life.then I.M.H.O. it should mean just that, not out in about 9 or 10 yrs.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
We should change the law so that it is time added ON for bad behaviour not time taken OFF.
So if sentenced to 10 years you do 10 years. If you are a bad boy then we are happy to just keep adding that time on. 3 months a pop for every minor issue. 1 - 5 years for every major.
By: Lincoln 7
- 8th April 2012 at 09:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Scrap the human rights act, and bring back birching and public capital punishment...
Now, now, Al, as a fellow Scot, I agree with you, as drastic as it sounds it's the only thing they understand these days.
Long gone are the days when you could take somewon down an allyway and give them a clip around the ear and send them packing, but HEY, it worked.
Jim.
Lincoln .7.
By: Lincoln 7
- 8th April 2012 at 10:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We should change the law so that it is time added ON for bad behaviour not time taken OFF.
So if sentenced to 10 years you do 10 years. If you are a bad boy then we are happy to just keep adding that time on. 3 months a pop for every minor issue. 1 - 5 years for every major.
I could live with that, good idea.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 585
By: waco - 7th April 2012 at 22:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Paul
What happens when you get it wrong.....ie the Birmingham 4 ?
Would you have executed the children in the Bulger case?
What would you do if a member of UK armed forces did what was alleged to have been recently done by the American Sargent?
If it was proved that the police were responsible for deaths at Hillsborough ? Execute them ?
Posts: 585
By: waco - 7th April 2012 at 22:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Creaking Door
A question please.
If a member of a "club" causes damage but pays for the damage later.
Should the person concerned be prosecuted?
Yes or no ?
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 7th April 2012 at 22:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A question back: if somebody completely misrepresents somebody on a public website should that person offer an apology for that misrepresentation?
Posts: 585
By: waco - 7th April 2012 at 22:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Creaking Door
I do not seek to mis represent you.
If you feel that I have I apologise.
I simply make the point that as I see it. There are different rules in the UK For those that have wealth and influence compared with rest of the populus.
I also champion major changes to the justice system that will enable all to enjoy the benefits of the law.
It is my humble opinion that very little real democracy practicly exists in the UK today.
Further unless we seek changes to the current status quo the outlook for UK will be dire.
We are creating a society where millions of people are becoming impoverished. If you have millions of people with "nothing to loose" then a collapse in society as we know it WILL occur.
Posts: 585
By: waco - 7th April 2012 at 23:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Creaking Door
Apology made most humbly..........
Would you please consider answering the question?
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 7th April 2012 at 23:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Birmingham 4 I still have my doubts about them.
Bulger case. No they were children but they would still be locked up today.
Armed Forces. I would execute him if he was sane.
Hillsborough That was a monumental **** up with no intent of killing anyone. I would like to see those responsible brought to book though. How about all the fans that did the pushing and trampling did they not also have to live with what some of them did that day?
My answers may be clouded by the fact that I was a Soldier in NI during the troubles.
Posts: 585
By: waco - 7th April 2012 at 23:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok Paul
Thanks for your thoughts. Especially for your comments regarding your NI service.
Must have been something very traumatic and since I have never gone through such experiance it is impossible for me to understand what you and your colleagues went through.
My point is......If you codify the legal system properly. Written consitution, bill of rights etc etc you can then put forward a bill which says :
You do A........ B is the result.
Whilst I might not agree with that. If it is voted for by a proper democratic process (please not first pass the post)...then so be it!
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 7th April 2012 at 23:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gladly.
If the ‘victim’ is happy to let the matter drop, after the damage has been paid for, then no I don’t think they should be prosecuted; but only in the matter of criminal damage. If there was any violence or abuse involved then the guilty shouldn’t be allowed to buy their way out of trouble. This would apply equally to the members of the Bullingdon Club or any other club or individual.
Posts: 585
By: waco - 7th April 2012 at 23:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Creaking Door
So....and feel free to correct me if I have this wrong.
A member of the recent riots goes back to a shop, apologises and pays for the damage. This apology is accepted by the shop owner. Said rioter should not be punished further.
In know way what so ever do I seek to misrepresent you. I simply seek your opinion.
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 7th April 2012 at 23:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In respect of the single shop-owner and payment for all damage and looted goods I wouldn’t really have a problem with that; however that scenario is unlikely to be that uncomplicated.
You’d have to take account of the little-old-lady that lived in the flat above the shop who may not have been physically injured or had any property stolen but may have been scared out of her wits; the likelihood of this ‘collateral damage’ being greatly magnified if there were five, fifty or five-hundred rioters.
Also how do you ‘pay for’ the damage to this country’s image internationally, with the images of the riots being flashed-round the world’s TV screens just a few months before the Olympics? How do you ‘pay for’ large areas of our major cities being no-go areas for days on end?
In identical circumstances I’d expect the law to be applied equally, irrespective of the wealth of the accused; hasn’t a millionaire’s daughter just been convicted of offences during the riots?
Posts: 585
By: waco - 7th April 2012 at 23:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
CD
Ok, why do you think the riots occured ?
Posts: 1,518
By: jbritchford - 8th April 2012 at 00:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A lot of the problems you mention here are because of the remedies that you suggest. Having elected Police or Court officials inevitably results in a race for who can be 'toughest on crime', resulting in absurd sentences and a desire to convict not based on evidence but to keep the statistics looking good for the re-election.
Also, I wouldn't be too quick to get rid of the House of Lords, they are merely an advisory house made up of experts, and their input is often valuable. Given that the Commons can override them anyway with the Parliament Act, getting in more politicians who are purely there for the gravy train for our upper house would be pointless.
Posts: 585
By: waco - 8th April 2012 at 00:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OK......
I shall now withdraw myself from this particulat thread.
As I do so may I just make the following comments.
I apologise unreservedly for upsetting any forumite with my comments. This is unintended, honestly.
I believe that there are too many fundimntal injustices presently within UK society. I also believe that if these injustices are not addressed the future for UK society is grim in the extream. Further i am of the opinion that the effects on UK society will be felt in the very near future.
I believe the best way to improve UK society is two fold
AA/ Get as many people back to work and as quickly as possible
BB/ We must do something about the greed in modern society.
I think at Easter time these are appropriate matters to be considered.
Good night, god bless and as Dave Allen used to say....."may your god go with you".
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 8th April 2012 at 00:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My view, and I stress that this is just my opinion, is that, for a brief period, certain sections of the population realised that there simply weren’t enough police to prevent them from rioting, looting and committing arson if they wanted to; as to why they wanted to, well, if their own morality wasn’t holding them back (and evidently it wasn’t), why wouldn’t they? I imagine it was all very exciting, running amok, taking whatever they could get their hands-on, destroying stuff, and without morality and (it seemed) consequences, why not?
I also think there were more organised criminal-gangs involved in large-scale thefts during the riots, and possibly even in starting rioting as a cover for such large-scale thefts; all helped along by the ability to communicate securely and rapidly via smart-phones. The news-media also providing a virtually instantaneous ‘blue-print’ for those in unaffected areas to copy the rioting; ‘why should they get-away with that and not us?’
Society holds together because the vast majority of people believe in the rule-of-law; they don’t loot because it is wrong, not because the police stop them.
Posts: 1,335
By: tornado64 - 8th April 2012 at 08:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
what if it was defacing a war memorial ????
it doesn't matter one jot sometimes damage is not repairable and even if it is people still know it was damaged
you are not paying for damage you are meant to be learning to take responsability for your actions !!
Posts: 1,335
By: tornado64 - 8th April 2012 at 08:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
that was an unavoidable situation . the fans cannot be held responsible in any form they were being fed into an unescapeable cattle pen continuosly with no escape route
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 8th April 2012 at 09:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
With respect, you seem not to have been at the sharp end for 30yrs as I, and many others have, otherwise, perchance your opinion that there is no problem with the way it is, would not have been stated.
Jim.
Lincoln. 7
Posts: 2,536
By: hampden98 - 8th April 2012 at 09:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We should change the law so that it is time added ON for bad behaviour not time taken OFF.
So if sentenced to 10 years you do 10 years. If you are a bad boy then we are happy to just keep adding that time on. 3 months a pop for every minor issue. 1 - 5 years for every major.
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 8th April 2012 at 09:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Now, now, Al, as a fellow Scot, I agree with you, as drastic as it sounds it's the only thing they understand these days.
Long gone are the days when you could take somewon down an allyway and give them a clip around the ear and send them packing, but HEY, it worked.
Jim.
Lincoln .7.
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 8th April 2012 at 10:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I could live with that, good idea.
Jim.
Lincoln .7