What has this Country come to?.

Profile picture for user Lincoln 7

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9 years 4 months

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It has been announced today, that the childrens Heart Hospital in Leeds, is to close,, due to cut backs. Parents face journeys of up to 6 hrs round trip to other Hospitals. As India,( not taking into account the aid we send to other Countries) in overseas aid, is taking £16.000.000 per year, and we are tied into this until 2015.WHY, even though Indias President publicly said they didn't want or need it, why havn't we stopped giving the money to them, when this money could have saved the Childrens Heart Hospital?. Now, today we hear that the Army are to receive massive cutbacks, losing Regiments dating back hundreds of years. If this pathetic Government could measure your lung capacity, they would even Tax you on the air we breath. I wonder what will be the next bright idea these idiots will bring in:mad: Jim. Lincoln .7
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Profile picture for user Moggy C

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The weasel in that statement, presumably lifted from the press is 'up to' How far do they really have to travel? Do you know Jim? (I have just checked the news story and the truth is that they can travel an hour or so along the M62 to Liverpool) And remember the coalition originally wanted to scrap the PCTs which would have freed up vast sums of money, but the whingers forced them to review. Moggy
Profile picture for user Lincoln 7

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Moggy, Whilst I was astounded at what I was watching and listening to, I roughly worked out the average journey was about 145 to 150,EACH WAY:rolleyes: depending on which Hospital the child had been sent to. Don't they realise, that these kids parents NEED to see their Ill children every day, and the cost if fuel for their cars will rocket, adding even more stress to their situation, and family budgets, not to mention to add to the strain on their marriage I feel like smashing the prats head in, who suggested that, and it takes a lot for me to say something like that.B.T.W. I believe that the children can be sent to one of 4? different Hospitals, so I suppose it depends on which Hospital can take them, There will now, due to this, be an inevitable waiting list for thhese poor kids to have to join. Jim, VERY ANGRY Lincoln .7

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13 years

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What is this country coming to? Well, hopefully it is coming to the realisation that we have to live within our means! As I said in a previous thread (of yours), and I’m sure people are sick of me saying so, in 2011/2012 the UK PLC will earn about £590billion but we’re planning to spend over £710billion.....and therefore borrow about £120billion (more)! Yes, I know countries can borrow money and run at a deficit, most do, but in the current world economic climate the deficit of the UK PLC (and our debt) is too big. Nobody regrets the cut-backs the British Armed Forces are having to endure more than me but we have to get spending under control; the world economy may get worse, much worse, in the near future and Britain must be in a position to weather the storm. I’m not sure the NHS closures that you mention are actually ‘cut-backs’; I haven’t been following the story but wasn’t there an issue of success-rates with children’s heart surgery a while ago? Let me turn the question around to you; the UK PLC has to save money, what would you cut? And cutting our ‘charity’ to India isn’t going to save the day! ;) (I’ve sent you a PM; did you see it?)
Profile picture for user Lincoln 7

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That's not the only one to close. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2168536/Childrens-heart-surgery-units-Royal-Brompton-hospitals-close-NHS-review.html
Alan, I read most of the artical, and the posts by it's readers. For the 1st time in my life, words fail me. I am pleased my three kids never had these problems. B.T.W. I saw this on Calendar news which only announced the Leeds Hospital. No mention was made of the others, as presumably because they were outside our area. Jim. Lincoln .7
Profile picture for user kev35

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Jim. You know, with all this hand wringing, you'll get terrible chapped skin. There will be seven centres to specialise in paediatric cardiac care, not sure where you get four from? But then again you won't be sure either. The journey from either Leeds or Leicester (two of the centres to close) to Liverpool is nowhere in the region of 150 to 200 miles each way. It's not 200 from London (where the other centre will close) to Liverpool. And even if it was there will still be two paediatric cardiac centres in London. If you read around the subject for a few minutes like I just have you'd realise that. And it seems that it is only surgery which will cease at these centres, not diagnostics or treatment, and it seems unlikely any of these centres will close till after 2013. Perversely, the problem at its root stems from the simple fact that the care currently provided by the NHS is too good in certain areas. Think about it. Infant mortality rates have reduced significantly because of the advances in medical science. Foetuses are being delivered earlier and earlier in the gestation period, survival rates are extremely high, but this leaves inevitable problems. look at life expectancy in adults. Adults now survive much longer with conditions which, even as recently as 20 years ago, would have induced death at a much earlier age. Medical science has made some truly astonishing advances, but the cost, not only financially, is in danger of outstripping the benefits. Regards, kev35
Profile picture for user Lincoln 7

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C.D. Warren, no P.M. In answer to your question. The very 1st thing would be to stop all overseas handouts, if we have to suffer so should they, it's a fact of life. Bring all our lads and lassies home from Afghanistan, it's our Vietnam, and no one is going to "Win".only those who supply the arms and ordnance et al. Stop paying MPs for 2nd homes. also pay them the average National wages, the only time I see the Chamber filled is PMs question time. Cut out a shedload of unneeded quangos, which are not needed, I am sure we could all name a few, couldn't we?. More very pertinent, make it harder for our M.E.Ps to stop fiddling their expences.I think Kinnock even has his whole family involved. No M.E.P. should be allowed to employ family or relatives. I could go on, but we will still trundle along, moan, and put up with the sorry state our once great Nation has become. Jim. Lincoln .7

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That's not the only one to close. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2168536/Childrens-heart-surgery-units-Royal-Brompton-hospitals-close-NHS-review.html
From that Daily Mail article:
...a consultation process launched by the Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts (JCPCT) of England as part of a national review aimed at streamlining paediatric congenital cardiac surgery services (PCCS). The Safe and Sustainable review followed the landmark inquiry into children’s heart surgery at Bristol Royal Infirmary between 1990 and 1995, where up to 35 children and babies died as a result of poor care. In the wake of the inquiry, it was recommended that paediatric cardiac units be set a target for the number of operations per year, and surgery be concentrated in a few specialist centres in order to ensure quality of care. Chris Ham, chief executive of The King's Fund health think-tank, said: 'The Royal Brompton case is emblematic of the challenges faced generally in the NHs over the question of how we can improve outcomes for patients. Surgeons who do more of these procedures get better at it.'
That does sound to me as if the best outcome of the surgery was the prime consideration rather than the proximity to the home of the patient. Also most critical-care wards for children (babies) have accommodation for parents to stay with their children during and after surgery; wouldn’t these be offered to parents for heart-surgery? Despite the headlines this seems to me to be a genuine attempt at improving care and improving efficiency.

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10 years 6 months

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It has nothing to do with cuts, in fact it's an attempt to improve the level of care available to children. Leicester, Leeds, and the Royal Brompton, in London, will lose their heart surgery units, while operations will continue in Newcastle, Liverpool, Birmingham, Bristol, Southampton, Great Ormond Street, and the Evelina, in London. Leeds to Liverpool is 75 miles, Leeds to Newcastle is 92, neither of which is likely to take 6 hours. This came about because of the deaths of a large number of children, in Bristol, a few years ago, due to inadequate careand is an attempt to concentrate expertise in just a few centres, so that better treatment results; if it doesn't work, then I'm sure we'll hear a chorus for heads to roll, but, if it works, and more children survive, will we hear any (grudging) praise, and admissions that "they" were right after all?

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Leeds to Liverpool is 75 miles, ***********, neither of which is likely to take 6 hours.
You have obviously never driven along the M62 in or between the rush hours. Leeds to Manchester can take 1.5 to 2 hours, and thats only 40 miles. The 20 odd miles from Manchester to Liverpool can take anything over an hour some days, and both these are at times when there isn't an accident somewhere along the way.

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In answer to your question...
Total UK overseas aid is about £7-£8billion per year; you could cut that certainly (in the short term) but it’d be interesting to see where the UK stands in current rankings for aid. I think the UK probably ranks quite well; isn’t that something to be proud of? I happen to agree with you with regard to Afghanistan; the sooner (all) our troops leave that country the better. So far the UK has probably spent around £11-£13billion on the war in Afghanistan; not that much when you consider we’ve been there over ten years. Of course the real tragedy in Afghanistan is the UK lives that have been lost and the bodies (and minds) that have suffered permanent wounds; the legacy of these will be with us for a very long time. Ironically the biggest increase in ‘aid’ spending in recent years has been to Iraq and Afghanistan; the government(s) adopting a policy of directing aid to known trouble-spots in an attempt to avoid the UK being drawn into conflict in these areas. At least I think that is the plan. I couldn’t say if it working but, to my mind, I think I’d try a policy of staying well away and not meddling in these regions for a decade or two; that would include not sending large amounts of aid either. As for the politicians on the fiddle, well what else do you expect? All government expenses should be properly itemised, published and be available on-line; I’d like to know if my MP is claiming his donation to the ‘Poppy Appeal’ as an expense! :rolleyes: The reality is that governments need to be popular; if it was that easy to make ‘cuts’ that were popular don’t you think that at least one of the political parties would have thought of it? How do you feel about paying the banks about £40billion every year in interest? :diablo:
Profile picture for user Lincoln 7

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Whilst it may seem O.K. and symplistic to quote mileage, what if you lived in London, and the only placement happened to be in Liverpool, or Newcastle, due to a backlog, (And you can guarantee it will happen), would you wish to travel that distance every day, as most parents would ?. I understand that at the Leeds Hospital, there are beds, so that parents can sleep next to their sick child. Do these Hospitals have the same facility?.they may have to go to. Jim. Lincoln .7
Profile picture for user kev35

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Jim. Hospitals make facilities, if a child is that ill then a way is found for at least one parent to stay. The same thing happens with ICU's, CCU's and PICU's. There never has been nor never will be enough high dependency beds to cover every eventuality. Having fewer paediatric cardiac centres but with a higher level of expertise surely has to be a good thing doesn't it? Or would parents prefer to travel fewer miles but risk their child having a smaller chance of survival? Regards, kev35

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The first duty of the State is and always has been the Defence of the Realm... That is sadly being sold down the river, do you realise how short the Armed Forces are, Scroll down and count the actual combat ships such as Frigates and Destroyers.... 19! Sounds a few, but then take those that are on refit out of equation etc and you have nothing. The whole services are suffering the same, stretched to do the tasks they cover at the moment, there is mutterings on Syria and Iran etc and they intend to cut another 20,000 troops, they are barking, it's alright saying we need to make cuts, fine scrap two parliaments and scrap aid in full. reserves are simply a way to cut funds and sorry a reserve is never going to replace a full time Squaddies in any shape or form..
Profile picture for user Merlin3945

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19 years 9 months

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I really don't get what some of you have said on here already. In this day and age there should be more centres and hospitals opening to care for the sick and elderly not less. Have we seen the golden age of the NHS come and go or do we just need to find our forte in the export business so we can rise and become a great nation. Soon we will have cutbacks to the cutbacks. Hang on come to think of it we already do have that.
Profile picture for user Lincoln 7

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Jim. Hospitals make facilities, if a child is that ill then a way is found for at least one parent to stay. The same thing happens with ICU's, CCU's and PICU's. There never has been nor never will be enough high dependency beds to cover every eventuality. Having fewer paediatric cardiac centres but with a higher level of expertise surely has to be a good thing doesn't it?
Kev, I couldn't agree more with what you have said. But like Great Ormond Street, surly they should not have to go cap in hand, and nearly beg the Public for donations etc, These kids can and will make a future for themselves and this Country. I, Like you, saw the Olympic Torch pass through our small town, There were Police from, Cambs, Norfolk, and even the Met Police, I have never seen so many since I was on the front line at Orgreave, during the Miners strike.But there was a general feeling of "Togetherness", as there was when the Falklands war was on. I do think however, that at this moment in time, if we can afford the Olympic Games, we should be able to build a good centraly placed Hospital for these children to go to, They can be airlifted in, and one parent, as you say, can be with their child, as my signature states.............. Jim. Lincoln .7

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You have obviously never driven along the M62 in or between the rush hours..
Wrong. I've also driven on the M1, M3, M4, M5, M6, M40 and M69 in heavy traffic, and, if there was a chance of being delayed, found somewhere to stay.
Leeds to Manchester can take 1.5 to 2 hours, and thats only 40 miles. The 20 odd miles from Manchester to Liverpool can take anything over an hour some days, and both these are at times when there isn't an accident somewhere along the way
And an accident, inside Leeds, could snarl up traffic, and delay you for hours; we can all quote "worst-case scenarios" to prove our case, but the most worrying thing, in all this, is that "they" are trying to ensure the concentration of services, in the best units (and, yes, they do supply beds for parents to stop overnight,) so that children get the best possible chance to survive, and some of you give the impression that you're totally against this for purely political reasons, caring little for the real sufferer, which is the child.
Profile picture for user Lincoln 7

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The first duty of the State is and always has been the Defence of the Realm... That is sadly being sold down the river, do you realise how short the Armed Forces are, Scroll down and count the actual combat ships such as Frigates and Destroyers.... 19! Sounds a few, but then take those that are on refit out of equation etc and you have nothing.
Tony, Your right, it's like having to expect an apprentice to do the same job as a fully qualified person, they ain;t going to cut it. I remember seeing HMS Ark Royal a few yrs ago, I was standing near Smeetons old Lighthouse, when she was leaving for blue waters, I had a very wide angle lense on my camera, but still failed to get all of her in, then we had a fairly decent Navy, remember seeing the Annual Fleet Review of yrs ago?, ships in line would be miles long and cover a large area of Sea, now we would be hard pressed to get a single Coxless rower out to display.I think we have gone too far to get back the status we once held in the world. Jim. Lincoln .7
Profile picture for user Al

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9 years 8 months

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The primary role of any government should be to cater for the needs of its own people first, and by that I'm not speaking about economic immigrants or asylum seekers. If we can't afford to look after our own sick and elderly, then why should the UK taxpayers fork out to aid other countries? As for UK armed forces numbers, it's fair that we should only have the services we can afford - but at the same time they shouldn't be asked to police the world just because of the prestige factor of 'sitting at the top table'. Couldn't the vast sum of money spent on operations in Iraq and Afghanistan have been better spent on improving the UK populations lot? What the hell are we doing there in the first place? It's a modern malaise, but the government wants it both ways - much more work for much less investment...
Profile picture for user Lincoln 7

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Al. We are there because the USA, as usual asked us nicely if we wanted to go and play with them over there. If we stay a hundred years, the day after everyone has left, things will return to how they were before it all kicked off. I have said it before, and will again, it's our Vietnam now. If other Countries want our help, they should help foot the cost, unless OIL is involved, then it's a different ball game. Charity, should begin at home, (Long forgotten British proverb) Jim. Lincoln .7