By: j_jza80
- 9th July 2012 at 23:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
20 A4 sheets in a plastic folder would be the nursing notes and therefore should be on the end of the bed. They are a day to day diary of the patient's condition and are there for all the nurses and doctors to see at all times. In most cases they would include the care plan and is there so that all staff are delivering the care required in the right way. Lincoln is talking about something else entirely. I have never seen a DNR instruction written in the nursing notes. That is always written in the patient's hospital file (generally a hell of a lot more than 20 pages) and I'm not certain but may have to be written in red. And it has to be signed by a doctor.
Regards,
kev35
As said, there was an additional set of notes hung on the end of the bed. I thought it was weird that the notes had actually been left on the bed, touching her feet. I'm not saying they were definately her doctors notes, but none of the other patients appeared to have a similar folder.
By: kev35
- 10th July 2012 at 00:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't get me wrong, I know that care can be inadequate, I've seen it. In one memorable case I walked away from it. There can be no excuse for the simple things not being done properly. It's just that Lincoln makes these claims which are always anecdotal and never evidential.
By: Lincoln 7
- 10th July 2012 at 00:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Kev, Your comments on thread number 80 are?. As I stated before earlier,there are exeptions to the rules in every walk of life,not just in Hospitals.No one more than I am thankfull for what Addenbrooks did for me, yes, they did save my life but...................................
By: kev35
- 10th July 2012 at 00:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
....No one more than I am thankfull for what Addenbrooks did for me, yes, they did save my life but...................................
Jim.
Lincoln .7
.....But you repay them by making unsubstantiated allegations about their confidentiality protocols and breaking the confidentiality of another patient by reading his notes!
That's low, even for an ex member of HM Constabulary.
By: Lincoln 7
- 10th July 2012 at 01:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
....
In your own words. N.W.B.W. if you think I am being more than economical with the truth, then so be it. But once again thats only your opinion. I bet the chap who had the wrong leg amputated the other week would fully agree with you, It was on the National News, what more evidential proof do you need than that.that mistakes are made?.
No one is infallible.
By: tornado64
- 10th July 2012 at 07:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=kev35;1909431]
BTW: My wife is a former UK Army nurse and former senior sister in the NHS.
We've discussed this,...and don't kid yourself by thinking euthenasia does not currently happen in the NHS.
It happens every day...with the urging of the family and patient.
John, your wife is absolutely correct.
It is done in a number of ways and as you say it is often done at the urging of both family and patient.
Euthanasia should be a right, we as humans are given rights throughout our lives, rights which are neither questioned or disputed. Why then should we not, in the right circumstance, have the right to determine our own end when the end is inevitable?
Regards,
kev35
actualy no it wont be !! hospitals have to be shown to have done everything reasonably possible to keep a person alive
in my fathers case they stopped treatment as one thing was setting another wrong so it was a struggle in vain so the only route was keeping him comfortable till the end and giving him dignity with his family in his last hours without a team crowding him
so it is quite difrent
but mostly they cannot make that dicision on thier own just because it is requested though , at that point courts have to be involved
By: BumbleBee
- 10th July 2012 at 09:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
they cannot make that dicision on thier own
Thats what I thought,but it wasn't my experience.
When my mother became dangerously ill with pneumonia,the nursing manager told me that my father had recently agreed to her having DNR status. The home's GP had discussed it with him and it was felt to be the kindest option,considering her poor quality of life.
I was surprised he'd done this,since he absolutely lived for Mum. Also since it was obvious that he was suffering from mild dementia himself,and it could be argued he didn't have the capacity to make that decision.
What actually happened is that when the nursing manager suggested to Dad that the kindest thing would be to let nature take its course,he became frantic. Couldn't remember agreeing to DNR,denied that he would ever have agreed to it,and demanded that every effort was made to keep Mum alive.
The nursing manager respected his decision and Mum was rushed to hospital.
After hours of tests and some nursing intervention,the doctor treating Mum asked to speak to me privately.
I explained that technically Mum had been DNR,but Dad had rescinded that status and was desperate for her to have all possible care.
To my astonishment,the doctor told me that Mum was gravely ill,but there was an extremely small chance that they could save her. However in the case of a catastrophic collapse they would take no action. The doctor referred to this as being " a clinical decision ".
I repeated that Dad's wishes were that everything humanly possible should be done to save his wife of sixty-seven years,but once again the doctor said that the medical protocol would over-rule that. Specifically,she would be allowed to die if cardiac resuscitation became the only way of saving her.In the doctor's own words , " It would be cruel to keep her alive ".
As it happened,by some miracle the hospital pulled Mum through and she died peacefully six weeks later. But this left me in no doubt that doctors do genuinely hold the power of life and death in their hands.
By: kev35
- 10th July 2012 at 09:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No Jim.
As always you avoid the issue. The issue here is partially that a mistake was made by leaving confidential material lying around. Surely, as a man of integrity and as an ex Police Officer of long standing, you have a full understanding of the concept of confidentiality and how important it is that confidentiality should be maintained. However, for no other reason than to satisfy your own curiosity, you breached the confidentiality of the patient whose notes you looked at. To me that says more about your lack of integrity than that of the staff on a busy ward.
I suggest you contact them about their failure to maintain confidentiality, as a public spirited person and having previously been a public servant don't you think it is incumbent upon you to show them the error of their ways? (You can leave the bit out about you reading another patient's notes, discussing elements of your findings with your GP and then talking about it on an open internet forum.)
Back up what you say with evidence, not anecdote, conjecture or imagination.
By: kev35
- 10th July 2012 at 10:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=tornado64;1909538]
.....in my fathers case they stopped treatment as one thing was setting another wrong so it was a struggle in vain so the only route was keeping him comfortable till the end and giving him dignity with his family in his last hours without a team crowding him
so it is quite difrent
but mostly they cannot make that dicision on thier own just because it is requested though , at that point courts have to be involved
It's a tough thing to go through. But the classical definition of euthanasia is from the Greek meaning 'good death'. That is exactly what you gave to your Dad, a bit of dignity and respect in his final hours. That, to me, is the ideal, and is the epitome of euthanasia, and euthanasia in its purest form. Remember the first tenet of the Hippocratic Oath is 'first, do no harm.' By prolonging a life unnecessarily a doctor could be said to be doing harm in that a patient continues to suffer.
The problem lies in the fact that it is a grey area, a million shades of grey, all of which are impacted upon by personal, Religious, societal, and increasingly legal attitudes which muddy the waters. There are certain cases in which the Courts play an important role. But I believe that euthanasia should be a right both as it is practiced now, and as a means of ending life where a person can justifiably convince a court that the ending of their life is a legitimate means to end their suffering.
By: Lincoln 7
- 10th July 2012 at 10:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
They certainly don't need me to tell them that, when they have had £78.000 worth of Cardio vascular equipment stolen, or the fact that across 110 NHS Trusts, 522 Laptops, containing thousands of patients records stolen.
What about Patient confidenciality contained on those computers?.
I am afraid Kev, as usual, we will continue to disagree with each other. and as such, these are my last words on the subject.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
By: tornado64
- 10th July 2012 at 22:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No Jim.
As always you avoid the issue. The issue here is partially that a mistake was made by leaving confidential material lying around. Surely, as a man of integrity and as an ex Police Officer of long standing, you have a full understanding of the concept of confidentiality and how important it is that confidentiality should be maintained. However, for no other reason than to satisfy your own curiosity, you breached the confidentiality of the patient whose notes you looked at. To me that says more about your lack of integrity than that of the staff on a busy ward.
The following link might be useful to you....
all medical documents are covered by confidentiality we even have to be careful we do not discuss one client infront of another it is all also legal documentation that is protected by confidentiality and the data protection act we often chase other clients that are being nosey and looking or listening in about other patients
By: tornado64
- 10th July 2012 at 22:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
They certainly don't need me to tell them that, when they have had £78.000 worth of Cardio vascular equipment stolen, or the fact that across 110 NHS Trusts, 522 Laptops, containing thousands of patients records stolen.
What about Patient confidenciality contained on those computers?.
I am afraid Kev, as usual, we will continue to disagree with each other. and as such, these are my last words on the subject.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
agreed they arn't the best but you have to put it in context the NHS is about the 3rd largest employer in the world put the figures against another employer of the same size and they would probably be lower than most just how do you fully protect a large building like a hospital that needs to remain free flowing and at the same time is treating some of the dreggs of society ??
By: paul178
- 10th July 2012 at 22:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When my Father in Law was in hospital riddled with cancer a Sister came up to my wife and I and sad the following. "We can continue treating him and prolong his life by a couple of weeks or stop treatment and just make him comfortable and let him have a quicker and more dignified death". As he was in pain mainly unconcious and rambling we chose the latter. He died peacefully two days later.
So was the Sister right in asking us that or is the quantity of life more important than the quality? BTW he was 86 and had always prided himself on being smart and dignified in everything he had done.
Posts: 1,542
By: j_jza80 - 9th July 2012 at 23:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As said, there was an additional set of notes hung on the end of the bed. I thought it was weird that the notes had actually been left on the bed, touching her feet. I'm not saying they were definately her doctors notes, but none of the other patients appeared to have a similar folder.
Posts: 6,968
By: kev35 - 10th July 2012 at 00:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As I say, quite probably a care plan.
Regards,
kev35
Posts: 1,542
By: j_jza80 - 10th July 2012 at 00:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Okay :)
Posts: 6,968
By: kev35 - 10th July 2012 at 00:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't get me wrong, I know that care can be inadequate, I've seen it. In one memorable case I walked away from it. There can be no excuse for the simple things not being done properly. It's just that Lincoln makes these claims which are always anecdotal and never evidential.
Regards,
kev35
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 10th July 2012 at 00:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Kev, Your comments on thread number 80 are?. As I stated before earlier,there are exeptions to the rules in every walk of life,not just in Hospitals.No one more than I am thankfull for what Addenbrooks did for me, yes, they did save my life but...................................
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 6,968
By: kev35 - 10th July 2012 at 00:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
.....But you repay them by making unsubstantiated allegations about their confidentiality protocols and breaking the confidentiality of another patient by reading his notes!
That's low, even for an ex member of HM Constabulary.
Regards,
kev35
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 10th July 2012 at 01:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In your own words. N.W.B.W. if you think I am being more than economical with the truth, then so be it. But once again thats only your opinion. I bet the chap who had the wrong leg amputated the other week would fully agree with you, It was on the National News, what more evidential proof do you need than that.that mistakes are made?.
No one is infallible.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 1,335
By: tornado64 - 10th July 2012 at 07:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=kev35;1909431]
actualy no it wont be !! hospitals have to be shown to have done everything reasonably possible to keep a person alive
in my fathers case they stopped treatment as one thing was setting another wrong so it was a struggle in vain so the only route was keeping him comfortable till the end and giving him dignity with his family in his last hours without a team crowding him
so it is quite difrent
but mostly they cannot make that dicision on thier own just because it is requested though , at that point courts have to be involved
Posts: 1,549
By: BumbleBee - 10th July 2012 at 09:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thats what I thought,but it wasn't my experience.
When my mother became dangerously ill with pneumonia,the nursing manager told me that my father had recently agreed to her having DNR status. The home's GP had discussed it with him and it was felt to be the kindest option,considering her poor quality of life.
I was surprised he'd done this,since he absolutely lived for Mum. Also since it was obvious that he was suffering from mild dementia himself,and it could be argued he didn't have the capacity to make that decision.
What actually happened is that when the nursing manager suggested to Dad that the kindest thing would be to let nature take its course,he became frantic. Couldn't remember agreeing to DNR,denied that he would ever have agreed to it,and demanded that every effort was made to keep Mum alive.
The nursing manager respected his decision and Mum was rushed to hospital.
After hours of tests and some nursing intervention,the doctor treating Mum asked to speak to me privately.
I explained that technically Mum had been DNR,but Dad had rescinded that status and was desperate for her to have all possible care.
To my astonishment,the doctor told me that Mum was gravely ill,but there was an extremely small chance that they could save her. However in the case of a catastrophic collapse they would take no action. The doctor referred to this as being " a clinical decision ".
I repeated that Dad's wishes were that everything humanly possible should be done to save his wife of sixty-seven years,but once again the doctor said that the medical protocol would over-rule that. Specifically,she would be allowed to die if cardiac resuscitation became the only way of saving her.In the doctor's own words , " It would be cruel to keep her alive ".
As it happened,by some miracle the hospital pulled Mum through and she died peacefully six weeks later. But this left me in no doubt that doctors do genuinely hold the power of life and death in their hands.
Posts: 6,968
By: kev35 - 10th July 2012 at 09:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No Jim.
As always you avoid the issue. The issue here is partially that a mistake was made by leaving confidential material lying around. Surely, as a man of integrity and as an ex Police Officer of long standing, you have a full understanding of the concept of confidentiality and how important it is that confidentiality should be maintained. However, for no other reason than to satisfy your own curiosity, you breached the confidentiality of the patient whose notes you looked at. To me that says more about your lack of integrity than that of the staff on a busy ward.
The following link might be useful to you....
http://www.cuh.org.uk/addenbrookes/patients/patient_confidentiality/about_patient_confidentiality.html
I suggest you contact them about their failure to maintain confidentiality, as a public spirited person and having previously been a public servant don't you think it is incumbent upon you to show them the error of their ways? (You can leave the bit out about you reading another patient's notes, discussing elements of your findings with your GP and then talking about it on an open internet forum.)
Back up what you say with evidence, not anecdote, conjecture or imagination.
Regards,
kev35
Posts: 6,968
By: kev35 - 10th July 2012 at 10:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=tornado64;1909538]
It's a tough thing to go through. But the classical definition of euthanasia is from the Greek meaning 'good death'. That is exactly what you gave to your Dad, a bit of dignity and respect in his final hours. That, to me, is the ideal, and is the epitome of euthanasia, and euthanasia in its purest form. Remember the first tenet of the Hippocratic Oath is 'first, do no harm.' By prolonging a life unnecessarily a doctor could be said to be doing harm in that a patient continues to suffer.
The problem lies in the fact that it is a grey area, a million shades of grey, all of which are impacted upon by personal, Religious, societal, and increasingly legal attitudes which muddy the waters. There are certain cases in which the Courts play an important role. But I believe that euthanasia should be a right both as it is practiced now, and as a means of ending life where a person can justifiably convince a court that the ending of their life is a legitimate means to end their suffering.
Regards,
kev35
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 10th July 2012 at 10:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
They certainly don't need me to tell them that, when they have had £78.000 worth of Cardio vascular equipment stolen, or the fact that across 110 NHS Trusts, 522 Laptops, containing thousands of patients records stolen.
What about Patient confidenciality contained on those computers?.
I am afraid Kev, as usual, we will continue to disagree with each other. and as such, these are my last words on the subject.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 1,335
By: tornado64 - 10th July 2012 at 22:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
all medical documents are covered by confidentiality we even have to be careful we do not discuss one client infront of another it is all also legal documentation that is protected by confidentiality and the data protection act we often chase other clients that are being nosey and looking or listening in about other patients
Posts: 1,335
By: tornado64 - 10th July 2012 at 22:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
agreed they arn't the best but you have to put it in context the NHS is about the 3rd largest employer in the world put the figures against another employer of the same size and they would probably be lower than most just how do you fully protect a large building like a hospital that needs to remain free flowing and at the same time is treating some of the dreggs of society ??
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 10th July 2012 at 22:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When my Father in Law was in hospital riddled with cancer a Sister came up to my wife and I and sad the following. "We can continue treating him and prolong his life by a couple of weeks or stop treatment and just make him comfortable and let him have a quicker and more dignified death". As he was in pain mainly unconcious and rambling we chose the latter. He died peacefully two days later.
So was the Sister right in asking us that or is the quantity of life more important than the quality? BTW he was 86 and had always prided himself on being smart and dignified in everything he had done.