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Member for

12 years 8 months

Posts: 851

Which state schools would that be John?

Or is it just your default setting that anything poor in education is in the state sector, which is evidentially false.

As I have said before,the only evidence I ever personally encountered regarding cheating in coursework was by Private schools, One in my local city independent grammar the other from a school further afield

I am not saying it is only in the private sector, just explaining my own experience.

Member for

18 years 11 months

Posts: 963

I don't watch or read any of Murdochs crap. It's shockingly bad. It's non-news, it's twisted. Suggest you take the same approach BB

Member for

13 years

Posts: 6,535

You won't be at all surprised to know that my experience is the reverse. When it comes to massaging, State schools are - pun intended- in top form. Hence all the publicity given to devalued State school exams.

Trekkie, don't forget: all must have prizes; all must be winners. No socialist inspired educational system such as ours can permit failure.

Member for

12 years 8 months

Posts: 851

It would appear that Charterhouse and Winchester College are also being investigated for giving pupils advanced knowledge of exam questions.
Three of the countries most expensive private schools found attempting to cheat in the same year
Tut tut. Perhaps this is the tip of an iceberg in the independent sector?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/08/27/exclusive-three-britains-leading-independent-schools-caught/
As far as the failure in state schools is concerned, again you are wrong, In my 6th Form college we always instilled into the students that failure was always an option (which some took up) if they were not willing to work and follow guidance given to them in terms of the effort and time required. Often those who had come from Private schools with their reliance on structured 'prep' found this concept the most difficult to cope with. To be honest this was often because most of them had been asked to leave their fee paying school because they had not flourished there.

Member for

13 years

Posts: 6,535

Just so long as we have private education the future of this country is assured. It is the one bright assurance that continues to lighten my sense of gloom especially when I can bring myself to read the latest OECD educational league tables.

Member for

12 years 8 months

Posts: 851

Ah, so long as they can cheat their way to success that's OK with you? I am aware that this is not universal, that some of them may not bend the rules for their pupils' advantage, but it is more common than you think and has been going on for decades.

I am not advocating having no private education provision, there are obviously some outsanding schools in the private sector, but there are also some that are not and a more vigorous scrutiny of methods and practices is probably overdue.

I suggest you read some of the other articles on the Torygraph website education section. State schools are catching up academically and so they are going to have to find alternative marketing strategies to justify their fees. And their charitable status

Member for

13 years

Posts: 6,535

Yes and when did it all start ? Not long after the left wing educationalists 'targets' were established and the left realised they could run rough shod over the education system, was when the temptation to tinker with the results becomes irresistible.

I know Winchester at first hand, having taught (briefly) there. I await the proof. I cannot believe that Britain's premier public school has connived at this practice.

State schools will never 'catch up academically'. The difference between the two systems is the difference between the conscript and the volunteer.

State pupils by and large are reluctant students. With rare exceptions, they are not renowned as gluttons for knowledge. Public school pupils pay for their privilege of education. The parents of these students being rather keen to get value for money. Long may it continue.

Member for

12 years 8 months

Posts: 851

State pupils by and large are reluctant

On what are you basing this nugget John?
What personal experience do you or your family have of State education to draw on to make this erroneous assumption.

Or is it merely based on prejudice

Regarding Winchester, there were some very,very odd people teaching there in the 70's ,one of whom tried to proposition my 14 year old sister at a social event at the school.
Was that your era by any chance?

The parents of these students being rather keen to get value for money.

I am very aware of this, but it does not guarantee the pupils actually achieve.
I had a very awkward conversation at a parents evening between a father who was berating his son in front of me regarding his lack of application. The gist was that he had wasted £200000 on his son's education at local independent schools and he had had enough.

Member for

18 years 11 months

Posts: 963

On a related note, my state school educated daughter just achieved a combination of 12 A* and 9's in her GCSE's with a scientific and maths leaning.

They're not all that bad or left leaning. I speak here with current and very close experience as opposed to spouting DM bile.

Member for

13 years

Posts: 6,535

"wasted £200,000.."

Yet still the private sector continues to thrive. They must be doing something right !

AK

No they are not. That much must be evident. I applaud your daughters success but, one swallow does not a summer make.

Member for

13 years

Posts: 6,535

The inimitable and much admired Labour MP Kate Hoey, warns of a reborn UKIP with a recharged Nigel once more in the chair now that our friend Jeremy C appears to have changed his mind yet again and decided that being an INNER is better than an being an OUTER. Report, D. Tel. 29th inst.

Kate comments that Labour voters who deserted UKIP at the last election could easily return to supporting Nigel.

Member for

12 years 8 months

Posts: 851

Congratulations to your daughter agentk.

My four nephews, all state educated, have all recently graduated, 3 with Masters degrees in either maths or physics or both, one a First and top student in his year in a Naval Architecture course, from Russell group universities and all have gone directly into well paid employment. To say to them that they had no thirst for learning would make them laugh at your lack of understanding, which may of course be down to a lack of education John.

I could give similar examples of hundreds of swallows from my own direct acquaintance

Member for

18 years 11 months

Posts: 963

Thank you Trekbuster and similar congratulations to your family too. I think it goes to show that it's far to simplistic to tar all schools with the same "leftist" brush.

Member for

13 years

Posts: 6,535

Perhaps one or, either of you can explain to me why it is that almost not a week passes without the D.Tel. or the Times or, even the alleged Independent featuring a complaint from one or more industrialists bemoaning the lack of basic education of the applicants for their job vacancies ?

Time and again they - the employers - say that they have to waste valuable time 'training up' applicants in even the most basic educational skills.

As for the reports of the OECD; we won't go there, I suppose they too are fabricated ?

Member for

14 years 5 months

Posts: 3,447

No, just manipulated.

John, have you considered that your view of what constitutes an education - for example, I'm sure it involves learning the Kings and Queens of England by rote - is exactly what employers find useless and what these people you call 'lefties' but whom I prefer to call teachers are trying to move away from.

By the way, that Nelson story is bunkum. It is a poor education that leaves a man accepting this nonsense as news.

I would be interested to see how a product of such 'beacons' as Winchester or even Eton would get on at an interview for Aldi. If they weren't laughed out of the interview room they wouldn't last five minutes on the shop floor. Frankly you are confusing two things when you talk of the excellence of these private institutions then decry a lack of preparation for real-life jobs.

Member for

13 years

Posts: 6,535

I'm not at all concerned about whatever activities our Kings and Queens got up to - one man's history is another's bunkum, besides which, I'm not a fan of the monarchy.

My concern - and I write as a former employer, is the constant media expressed concern of employers, regarding the educational abilities of so-called university graduates. These graduates come very poorly prepared. The employer's, very often without the means to do so, have to resort to remedial training in the basic skills of reading, writing and basic maths.

They arrive for a job interview very often incorrectly dressed, with a poor attitude and unable to form coherent sentences. This is not an extreme view or opinion. What I've described, is what I, and many many others have experienced and continue to experience. This is not new. I haven't been an employer for many years but, even in my day, it was a frequent occurrence.

You mention a product of Winchester or Eton appearing for a job interview at Aldi. Aldi management would grab them with both hands and never let go. Over qualified they might be but, their attitude, their education, their ability to empathise with Aldi customers would cause Aldi management to drool !

"Lasting five minutes on the shop floor" ? How on earth do you know ? Do your Fred Kite opinions mean that their 'posh ways' would arouse class antipathies ? I do not think so. It might conceivably mean a 'levelling up' rather than a 'dumbing down'.

I thank the Gods that most of the products of our first class private schools and universities are hopefully destined to play a part in the running of the country. We've now had four or five decades of left wing influence in our education system - to what benefit ? Our young people have been failed by a discredited State education system. That is a truly shocking indictment.

Member for

14 years 5 months

Posts: 3,447

How on earth do I know? Because I have been there, on the shop floor. Have you? You got me there, though - I am now going to go away and Google Fred Kite (Edit: I now have. Character from a 1959 Ealing Comedy - or 'contemporary satire' in John's world).

There are a lot of very poor (academically and in terms of attitude) university graduates out there. This is because there are now a large number of essentially commercial entities calling themselves universities who will take and matriculate anyone who can pay. This is the change that has happened, and it takes a lot of truth-mangling to make this the fault of left-wing influence on state education provision.

Eton kids empathising with Aldi Customers made me laugh - do you know how ludicrous that concept really is? Then I stopped when I realised that this is the problem we have - these people do end up running the country.

Member for

18 years 11 months

Posts: 963

"I thank the Gods that most of the products of our first class private schools and universities are hopefully destined to play a part in the running of the country."

Given that such people as Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Cameron, Fox etc. were products of said educational establishments, and look at the mess they have made of things, then perhaps one shouldn't be hopeful this is the case and perhaps change is for the best.

Member for

13 years

Posts: 6,535

AK

I see your argument. How much better, how much more efficient, how much more beneficial to the country would it be to have the able assistance of the very lovely and highly competent Diane Abbott ?

Not to mention Emily (White Van Man ) Thornbury or the arch conjuror himself Jeremy (Now You See It Now You Don't) Corbyn or, the far from hapless Keir (We're In, No We're Out) Starmer or, Tom (You Want a Knuckle Sandwich) Watson. All, very able and competent and just what the country needs.

I'll have to take a break I'm weak with laughter.

Member for

18 years 11 months

Posts: 963

JG I'm weak with laughter too, I wasn't advocating those people you list, far from it, just providing balance and highlighting the apparent lack of good politicians across the whole spectrum these days, who are not excessively influenced by unions, or damaging ideologies, or press moguls, or financial institutions and who can't relate to the people they purport to represent.