By: Creaking Door
- 10th January 2015 at 23:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I love the whole notion of a 'false flag' operation. It is the ultimate 'get out of jail free card'; whenever your 'side' commit some unspeakable atrocity you just claim that it is really your enemy that committed the atrocity knowing that it will bring condemnation down on you!
It is particularly useful in conflict involving a religious element (an extremist element or not) because some (most?) religions are 'immaculate' so they have to be right about everything, absolutely everything, always; if you can't do wrong, when you do, you have to claim in wasn't you!
By: Moggy C
- 11th January 2015 at 00:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Speaking of which, somebody has already suggested that the whole Paris debacle is a Mossad 'false flag' event.
Yes, Round about post #35
Moggy
New
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10
- 11th January 2015 at 12:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
BTW at least one cartoonist from charlie hebdo was fired because he made a drawing about the wedding of sarkozy's son with the daughter of the darty group's owner.
By: John Green
- 11th January 2015 at 14:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We had our very own problems with this Forum's interpretation of 'free speech' until the pronouncements of the senior Law Lord in this country were brought to the Forum's attention.
By: Edgar Brooks
- 11th January 2015 at 14:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
BTW at least one cartoonist from charlie hebdo was fired because he made a drawing about the wedding of sarkozy's son with the daughter of the darty group's owner. But yeah freedom of speech alright.
At least he wasn't murdered because of it.
I was sacked from my first job, to make room for the boss's nephew; if you think a life of work will always be full of sweetness and light, you have an awful lot to learn.
By: 1batfastard
- 11th January 2015 at 14:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi All,
Moggy C,
Not really, I realise that Charlie was a secular magazine but the question still stands, are there any Muslim satirical magazines ? I can imagine that there must be those Muslims who take the micky out of their faith but would they ever produce it in a format such as Charlie did with a whole host of topics and religions. As an example I found this woman quite by accident who has had death threats because of her act.
By: lightning F57
- 11th January 2015 at 16:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A sad state of affairs the world community is in. I hope a way can be found to deal with extremism at its cause.
In regards to freedom of expression, politicians and the media at the moment are point scoring over this tragedy, freedom of expression in Europe is a myth, have you guys forgotten this story, I think Nicholas mentioned it above.
By: charliehunt
- 11th January 2015 at 16:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We can certainly argue about the finer points of freedom of speech as practiced as opposed to the principle but at least this man wasn't murdered in cold blood by Jews.
By: John Green
- 14th January 2015 at 16:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
After listening to all the furious arguments and comments over the last few days, has anyone got a clue as to what would be an effective means of preventing these attacks - whatever the motivation ?
By: charliehunt
- 14th January 2015 at 17:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Probably not other than massively increased vigilance - if that were even feasible, because the zealotry of these people knows no bounds and they will find any reason to avenge what hey see as afronts to Mohammed. Interesting that Al-Qaeda in Yemen has admitted liability, where more than twice the number murdered in Paris were also murdered the day before the Paris atrocities but with barely a mention in the media and with no massed marches through the streets of Sana'a.
By: paul178
- 14th January 2015 at 18:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
#72 kick members of the 99.9% of the Muslim community out of this country if they harbour or don't tell the authorities about the so called .1% that are radicalised. Confiscate all their belongings and Bulldoze any Mosque that allows any anti British speakers who espouse hatred or violence
Harsh maybe but some of them a good kick up the backside and work out if they want to be a law abiding member of this country or not.
Me? If I got wind of a member of my family on a terrorist path I would grass them up straight away.
By: John Green
- 14th January 2015 at 20:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that we have to begin by confronting what for some will be unpalatable truths. Our way of life in the West does not square nor will it ever, with the religion and way of life of Islam.
After forty years of immigration from the sub continent, there are still, unbridgeable, irreconcilable differences between the way we are accustomed to living our lives in the West and the determination of the incomers to pursue their particular agenda and to maintain their religion, culture, language and customs. I can quite easily understand that.
It was at first thought that the Western way of life with its easy tolerant acceptances would prove too strong a lure for the incomers and that they would easily convert to our ways. So much for that particular theory. I accept that there are many good Moslems who confine their butchery to their halal slaughterhouses and stringently avoid practicing their art on our streets but, and this is a central point, how do we work out who they are ?
For forty years or more, our politicians of all shades have dithered, hoping that the problem would resolve itself and we would all live harmoniously. They now know that upon the evidence before us that won't happen and it is their responsibility to grasp the nettle and do something.
Most of the now established immigrant communities have maintained links with the countries that provide their heritage. Whether they be Moslem or Hindu, from the sub continent or Afro Caribbean from the West Indies, most have extended families and judged by the volume of passenger traffic by air, visit their families frequently.
The liberal left will take issue with this but don't forget other prior British governments provided financial inducements to anyone who wanted to leave Britain and resettle in their heritage country, by which I mean the country that produced their parents and grandparents. We would effectively be paying Danegeld. We have history in that respect.
I cannot think of any other means by which we could constructively overcome the intractable and growing problem that faces Western Europe. The politicians won't like it. It will constitute an admission of defeat attached to a problem that they created.
By: TonyT
- 14th January 2015 at 22:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Simply put a blanket media ban on anything they say from the net to the lowest scribbled note on bog paper... It's only through media that the rest of the Muslim world is aware what these sand ticks are up to, cut off there media and you cut off their funding and support through recruitment... Why the press give the scum in Sudan airtime is beyond me. It is important to show that we will not be cower to this scums threats.
By: Moggy C
- 15th January 2015 at 07:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
... has anyone got a clue as to what would be an effective means of preventing these attacks
No, because it simply isn't possible.
The security forces know that whatever they do there is always the chance of one or two of these scum pulling off a Paris style attack.
Just part of modern life I fear.
Bribing people to go back to 'heritage countries' (I think in UKIP-speak this is called Bongo Bongo Land)? Brilliant idea - not. Who will be the last to leave? The ones that would do us harm.
By: charliehunt
- 15th January 2015 at 08:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For over 50 years we were defending ourselves from an external enemy during the Cold War and for a few fewer years from an internal terrorist group bent on the overthrow of part of our nation with a death toll higher than our recent overseas conflicts.
Now we are faced with the continuing threats from a minority of ealous extremists of another creed who murder their own as well as us.
It will be a part of our lives for a generation to come no doubt and more lives will be lost. Where the world will be in 25/30 years time is pure crystal ball gazing. But not at peace with itself, for sure.
By: AlanR
- 15th January 2015 at 23:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
After listening to all the furious arguments and comments over the last few days, has anyone got a clue as to what would be an effective means of preventing these attacks - whatever the motivation ?
It might be a help if we could stop those who go abroad to fight, from coming back into the country.
Trouble is, we have organizations queueing up to say this denies them their human rights.
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 10th January 2015 at 23:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I love the whole notion of a 'false flag' operation. It is the ultimate 'get out of jail free card'; whenever your 'side' commit some unspeakable atrocity you just claim that it is really your enemy that committed the atrocity knowing that it will bring condemnation down on you!
It is particularly useful in conflict involving a religious element (an extremist element or not) because some (most?) religions are 'immaculate' so they have to be right about everything, absolutely everything, always; if you can't do wrong, when you do, you have to claim in wasn't you!
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 11th January 2015 at 00:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, Round about post #35
Moggy
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10 - 11th January 2015 at 12:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
BTW at least one cartoonist from charlie hebdo was fired because he made a drawing about the wedding of sarkozy's son with the daughter of the darty group's owner.
But yeah freedom of speech alright.
Nic
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 11th January 2015 at 14:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We had our very own problems with this Forum's interpretation of 'free speech' until the pronouncements of the senior Law Lord in this country were brought to the Forum's attention.
At least I think that is what happened !
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 11th January 2015 at 14:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Did we? I must have missed the memo!
Posts: 894
By: Edgar Brooks - 11th January 2015 at 14:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
At least he wasn't murdered because of it.
I was sacked from my first job, to make room for the boss's nephew; if you think a life of work will always be full of sweetness and light, you have an awful lot to learn.
Posts: 3,650
By: 1batfastard - 11th January 2015 at 14:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi All,
Moggy C,
Not really, I realise that Charlie was a secular magazine but the question still stands, are there any Muslim satirical magazines ? I can imagine that there must be those Muslims who take the micky out of their faith but would they ever produce it in a format such as Charlie did with a whole host of topics and religions. As an example I found this woman quite by accident who has had death threats because of her act.
Geoff.
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 11th January 2015 at 15:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No idea, or even what the relevance would be.
Moggy
Posts: 179
By: lightning F57 - 11th January 2015 at 16:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A sad state of affairs the world community is in. I hope a way can be found to deal with extremism at its cause.
In regards to freedom of expression, politicians and the media at the moment are point scoring over this tragedy, freedom of expression in Europe is a myth, have you guys forgotten this story, I think Nicholas mentioned it above.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/4351672/French-cartoonist-Sine-on-trial-on-charges-of-anti-Semitism-over-Sarkozy-jibe.html
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 11th January 2015 at 16:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We can certainly argue about the finer points of freedom of speech as practiced as opposed to the principle but at least this man wasn't murdered in cold blood by Jews.
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 14th January 2015 at 16:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
After listening to all the furious arguments and comments over the last few days, has anyone got a clue as to what would be an effective means of preventing these attacks - whatever the motivation ?
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 14th January 2015 at 17:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Probably not other than massively increased vigilance - if that were even feasible, because the zealotry of these people knows no bounds and they will find any reason to avenge what hey see as afronts to Mohammed. Interesting that Al-Qaeda in Yemen has admitted liability, where more than twice the number murdered in Paris were also murdered the day before the Paris atrocities but with barely a mention in the media and with no massed marches through the streets of Sana'a.
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 14th January 2015 at 18:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
#72 kick members of the 99.9% of the Muslim community out of this country if they harbour or don't tell the authorities about the so called .1% that are radicalised. Confiscate all their belongings and Bulldoze any Mosque that allows any anti British speakers who espouse hatred or violence
Harsh maybe but some of them a good kick up the backside and work out if they want to be a law abiding member of this country or not.
Me? If I got wind of a member of my family on a terrorist path I would grass them up straight away.
JUISE SUIS CHARLIE
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 14th January 2015 at 20:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that we have to begin by confronting what for some will be unpalatable truths. Our way of life in the West does not square nor will it ever, with the religion and way of life of Islam.
After forty years of immigration from the sub continent, there are still, unbridgeable, irreconcilable differences between the way we are accustomed to living our lives in the West and the determination of the incomers to pursue their particular agenda and to maintain their religion, culture, language and customs. I can quite easily understand that.
It was at first thought that the Western way of life with its easy tolerant acceptances would prove too strong a lure for the incomers and that they would easily convert to our ways. So much for that particular theory. I accept that there are many good Moslems who confine their butchery to their halal slaughterhouses and stringently avoid practicing their art on our streets but, and this is a central point, how do we work out who they are ?
For forty years or more, our politicians of all shades have dithered, hoping that the problem would resolve itself and we would all live harmoniously. They now know that upon the evidence before us that won't happen and it is their responsibility to grasp the nettle and do something.
Most of the now established immigrant communities have maintained links with the countries that provide their heritage. Whether they be Moslem or Hindu, from the sub continent or Afro Caribbean from the West Indies, most have extended families and judged by the volume of passenger traffic by air, visit their families frequently.
The liberal left will take issue with this but don't forget other prior British governments provided financial inducements to anyone who wanted to leave Britain and resettle in their heritage country, by which I mean the country that produced their parents and grandparents. We would effectively be paying Danegeld. We have history in that respect.
I cannot think of any other means by which we could constructively overcome the intractable and growing problem that faces Western Europe. The politicians won't like it. It will constitute an admission of defeat attached to a problem that they created.
Posts: 8,980
By: TonyT - 14th January 2015 at 22:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Simply put a blanket media ban on anything they say from the net to the lowest scribbled note on bog paper... It's only through media that the rest of the Muslim world is aware what these sand ticks are up to, cut off there media and you cut off their funding and support through recruitment... Why the press give the scum in Sudan airtime is beyond me. It is important to show that we will not be cower to this scums threats.
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 15th January 2015 at 07:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, because it simply isn't possible.
The security forces know that whatever they do there is always the chance of one or two of these scum pulling off a Paris style attack.
Just part of modern life I fear.
Bribing people to go back to 'heritage countries' (I think in UKIP-speak this is called Bongo Bongo Land)? Brilliant idea - not. Who will be the last to leave? The ones that would do us harm.
Moggy
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 15th January 2015 at 08:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For over 50 years we were defending ourselves from an external enemy during the Cold War and for a few fewer years from an internal terrorist group bent on the overthrow of part of our nation with a death toll higher than our recent overseas conflicts.
Now we are faced with the continuing threats from a minority of ealous extremists of another creed who murder their own as well as us.
It will be a part of our lives for a generation to come no doubt and more lives will be lost. Where the world will be in 25/30 years time is pure crystal ball gazing. But not at peace with itself, for sure.
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 15th January 2015 at 19:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No Moggy you get special forces to slot them first.
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 15th January 2015 at 22:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anyone ever suggest you have been watching too much Ross Kemp?
Moggy
Posts: 4,996
By: AlanR - 15th January 2015 at 23:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It might be a help if we could stop those who go abroad to fight, from coming back into the country.
Trouble is, we have organizations queueing up to say this denies them their human rights.