Inside Jaguar: Making a Million Pound Car Channel 4 Replica/Reproduction

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Did anyone se this program on Channel 4 last week http://www.channel4.com/programmes/inside-jaguar-making-a-million-pound-car I know we have done the replica/reproduction agruement to death, but it was interesting to see the perspective of owners of the Lightweight E-Types at Goodwood. Apparently they would not be allowed to race at Goodwood as ' they do not allow replicas' However, are they replicas, reproduction or late-production model? The 6 cars were a) Built by the same manufacture (albeit 40 odd years later) b) They used 6 allocated but un-built construction data plates Whatever your view (and I can't see them as being replicas) , the fact they were made was fascinating to watch
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I found it interesting that they don't hold the aircraft appearing there to the same standard of originality
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They are factory assembled replicas. RS Panels build the body, Crossthwaite and Gardner build the engine, Jaguar assemble it from pieces, there's nothing made in house - its not like the originals which were put together in Jaguar's Competition Shop. I know that a lot of things are outsourced and the original production 'E' (not the lightweight) had panels come in from Abbey Panels; but the majority of parts were from Jaguars own factories. To truly be late production, it should be the same as the Lister-Jaguar continuation cars where as much as possible was done in house. Jaguar's attempt is a big marketing effort and a realisation that rebranding things has dropped a clanger, and that past glories are great for business until they win at Le Mans again. Goodwood do actually allow replicas, but only ones of significant cars where no originals exist - recently cars such as the 1952 long nose C-type replica, or Chris Rea's Ferrari. Regards, Rich

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Rich, have to disagree. The Company took out the 6 VINs at the time the production was underway. A replica can never have an original factory VIN, it always has a surrogate. No car company produced every part in house, they always rely on sub suppliers to provide component parts. Admittedly the engine plant originally used no longer exists, so they used a supplier to manufacture, using original tooling etc where available. Jaguar has used motor panels (or whatever their called now) and Pressed steel Fisher to supply bodies for years, so again they are a supplier. Is there an element of marketing in all this - yes of course, why should the likes of Eagle etc be able to cream off the profit, it's about time the original manufacturer had some of it as well. And without wanting to open the can of worms, but they are more authentic and original than a lot of flying WWII fighter types gracing the sky at airshows - so are they all replica's..... I now have to admit my bias - I work for jaguar, hence my ID

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Surely if a part of a vehicle or aircraft is manufactured to be interchangeable with an 'original' part, from similar material, has an identical appearance and has similar 'performance' properties (strength, weight, ductility) then, for all intents and purposes, it is an 'original' part... ...any discussions about, when it was manufactured, what building it was manufactured in, or what name was on the building when it was manufactured, are superfluous aren't they? Only saw a brief part of the Lightweight E-Type programme (the Goodwood part) but surely these cars could be welcomed to Goodwood if it wasn't a 'historic' race meeting; I don't know exactly what the rules are but are modern sports cars welcome? I doubt a Bugatti Veyron would be welcome at a Goodwood 'historic' race meeting either but then that car doesn't make any pretence at being from an earlier era! A Jaguar Lightweight E-Type is also just what it is.....a Jaguar Lightweight E-Type. Not a Jaguar E-Type!

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There is more to it than just Lord March being able to state 'we don't allow replicas'. Goodwood races (and most other historic meetings of the type) are sanctioned by the FIA and the historic motor racing bodies within the FIA umbrella. In order to gain entry into an FIA sanctioned historic race meeting, the car has to be as it raced in period and homologated by the FIA and given a historic technical passport proving the car is as it was when first raced. The only deviation from this is the use of modern roll cages, seats, seatbelts and driver equipment (overalls and helmets). It may be possible to take an original road car of the period and turn it into a historic race car based on available FIA homologation but you cannot get a passport on a car built during 2014 or 2015. It has to be built in period. Although there is nothing to stop you building/buying a bodyshell and building a 'dataplate' period car - but that is a whole different can of worms and no-one is expecting the new lightweights to suddenly develop a new data plate
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There was a lot of BS spoken in the programme: Goodwood Revival already allows recreations of cars which are not necessarily rare (at least one of the D-Types at last year's Revival for instance). So I didn't understand the relevance of remarks that the Lightweights wouldn't be allowed. And they are produced in the same way as the Sanction II DB4 GT Zagatos, which don't seem to attract the same amount of sniffy-ness. But maybe the reason for all this was the programme's insistence on attaching a monetary value to the whole operation. The day will soon come when owners of original GTO's, DB4 Zagatos and E-Type Lightweights don't want to risk racing them, and then these lesser continuation cars will be our only chance to see examples actually RACING.

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This isn't really Historic Aviation !
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If the six buyers are happy to splash the cash on these vehicles does it really matter?...
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Mark, You should know better then... They're not VINs, they're purely body/build numbers, VIN's didn't come into use until way later. So if the last car of the new batch was something like 850023 they can still make many many more, as other models don't share the build number. Example? XXC, XKD, XKSS and so forth for other nice toys.. all with relatively small numbers. How long before somebody pops up and says that there's more numbers there? The latest duty rumour is the cars that were lost in the factory fire have been found. Well, the numbers have at least. So, despite all the hoohah, none of these cars should really be eligible for the company's own Heritage Certificate. Why? Because the numbers don't appear in the company's order book for the period. Same as the guy that built the 'last' V12 E-type from factory suplied parts after production offfically ceased. Or the dead D-type's written off at the factory for parts, that have somehow reappeared after no-one has seen them for 50 years. This laying claim to '6 VINS at the time', do you not think this would have come to light with the written works of Andrew Whyte, Nigel Thorley, or perhaps someone like Peter Wilson who used to build the real lightweights? So no JDHT certificate, and if they do then it will make all the ones issued so far worthless.. I realise that they're outsourcing heavily this time around, but if we are to take this as a true continuation of the original; then you can't do that, as it defeats the object of the exercise. Someone else has produced it and the company is naively trying to add a validity to it. Its falling flat though - they're a nice piece of engineering but everyone knows where they came from, who made them, and what they really are. Order one from RS panels, get a C&G engine and get the JDC to agree its made from period parts and the DVLA will sign it off as an E-type for a fraction of the price. Lets look again at how much 'Jaguar' is in these. Assuming I bought one of these cars. Could I get specialist parts for it through a Jaguar dealer (can for the production E-type.)? No. Can I get parts direct from Jaguar through the JDHT parts scheme (can for the production E-type) No. Could I have done with an original car, bought from the factory at the time? Yes. Can I walk into CMC, RS Panels, and get the bits? Yes. As for Pressed Steel Fisher supplying bodies, that was largely for the saloon cars, and Jaguar later became part of the same company through BMC (later BL). Pressed Steel never made the E-type either, it was Abbey Panels, so its pointless. And neither built the lightweights, they were put built at Browns Lane -same as the C-types, D-types, XJ13 and all the true legends. "why should the likes of Eagle etc be able to cream off the profit, it's about time the original manufacturer had some of it as well." There's your problem. If Jaguar wanted the money they should have protected their rights to the name and shape better - as do the German companies. Keep up the good work, tell your bosses the F-type badly needs to go play on the Mulsanne. We need something British to cheer for. ;) Regards, Rich

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...owners of original.....E-Type Lightweights don't want to risk racing them...
So there were original 'Lightweight E-Type' Jaguars? I must have got the wrong end of the stick from the part of the programme that I saw; how close are these new-build 'Lightweights' then to the originals?
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This isn't really Historic Aviation !
No but it adds another perspective to the discussions we have on here on Replicas/Reproduction etc Mark12 once posted this on one of those threads http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html Paul
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This isn't really Historic Aviation !
I'm glad somebody felt the need to point out that one of the more interesting recent discussions, shouldn't actually be discussed here; to lend some aviation credibility, "Although there is nothing to stop you building/buying a bodyshell and building a 'dataplate' period car - but that is a whole different can of worms and no-one is expecting the new lightweights to suddenly develop a new data plate" this really is the case for the "rebuilding" of historic A/C summed up.

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It doesnt add any aviation credibility at all ! Rebuilding old cars and aircraft is not a new activity - the fact that Jaguar can build some cars from parts -give them a label and make some money out of it has little relevance to the various industries building Spitfires and Me109's ! Is the CAA or LAA going to be having any discussions about the relevance of new lightweight Jaguars -I very much doubt it!
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Obligatory aircraft content - Jaguar shadow factory activiuties during wartime - Service Work Whitley aircraft repaired and flown: 134 Whitley aircraft broken and salvaged: 339 Cheetah auxiliary drive units reconditioned and tested: 857 Whitley wings modified for heavier bombs: 80 sets Whitley tailplanes modified: 18 Whitley fuel tanks repaired: 333 Wellington mainplanes: - Stirling elevators: - Whitley Parts Cockpit roofs: 1399 Bomb doors: 100 pairs Landing gear doors: 200 sets Tail planes: 50 Spar panels: 150 sets Bomb door fenders: 1100 Bomb beams: 570 Fuel tanks fireproofed: 1223 Cage formers: 1280 Former "B" : 1604 Formers "A" and "C" : 1150 Formers "D" "E" and "F" : 1150 Meteor III Parts Centre section complete: 98 Stirling Parts Trailing edge in way of aileron: 1181 Trailing edge in way of flap: 1039 Leading edge outer portion: 575 Leading edge between nacelles: 490 Trailing edge ribs: 140 sets Dinghy stowage covers: 483 Mosquito Parts Fuel tanks fireproof covered: 19562 Oil tanks fireproof covered: 500 Spitfire parts Wing tips: 294 pairs Oil tanks: 1586 30 gallon jettison tanks: 1150 170 gallon jettison tanks: 550 Lancaster Parts Bomb doors: 503 Gun Control Parts Four gun control sets: 6998 Relay boxes: 23954 Ammo box frames: 5749 Cartridge link chutes: 24309 Ammunition boxes: 18644 Oxygen bottle cradles: 750 Ammunition boxes (again?!!): 4461 Miscellaneous parts Aircraft de-icing tanks: 5097 Oxford tanks fireproofed: 1220 If they had some numbers left over from that little lot, I'd bet there would be a rather long queue... Regards, Rich
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So there were original 'Lightweight E-Type' Jaguars? I must have got the wrong end of the stick from the part of the programme that I saw; how close are these new-build 'Lightweights' then to the originals?
Well it's a fair point: since these cars were often different in specification (esp the Lindner/Nocker car and the other low-drag car), they're continuing 'in the spirit of'. I see no problem with them and will consider them as true Jaguars in the same way as I'd 100% consider TWR-built XJR's to be 100% Jaguar.

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They are what in the diecast model world would be termed a 're-issue'; they have been built to massage the egos of half a dozen obscenely rich people, and will rankle with many in the historic car world for diminishing the standing of the original survivors, in much the same way that the new build/replica Spitfires do.

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So there were original 'Lightweight E-Type' Jaguars? I must have got the wrong end of the stick from the part of the programme that I saw; how close are these new-build 'Lightweights' then to the originals?
Yes, if you didn't see the whole program. There were 12 special factory built Aluminum bodied E-types built for racing around the early years of the series 1 E-type. They were raced by the factory and had mostly professional drivers, so if you own one of the 12 then it's likely a famous works driver of the early sixties raced it at some point and now you can buy a Spitfire or Mustang for less (gratuitous aviation reference)! As for originality it's not easy to tell. The originals were handbuilt and will all be slightly different depending on their racing history, repairs and modifications when in works or subsequent private hands. What we can tell from the program is that the sub-contractors (not mentioned by the program) employed by Jaguar Heritage had access to as many drawings as available and attempted to build cars to those drawings.
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Yes, if you didn't see the whole program. There were 12 special factory built Aluminum bodied E-types built for racing around the early years of the series 1 E-type. They were raced by the factory and had mostly professional drivers, so if you own one of the 12 then it's likely a famous works driver of the early sixties raced it at some point and now you can buy a Spitfire or Mustang for less (gratuitous aviation reference)!
Driven by a famous driver - no doubt. Drivin by a works driver - not quite. The Lightweights weren't really a Works effort, in the same way as E2A - the progenitor of the E-Type - wasn't raced by the works either. And i'm sure that the final 'Lightweight' of the original 12 had a steel chassis?

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Fair enough, Jaguars aren't really my area of expertise. I'm more of an MG man.

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Apologies, but a response on some points.
Mark, You should know better then... They're not VINs, they're purely body/build numbers, VIN's didn't come into use until way later. So if the last car of the new batch was something like 850023 they can still make many many more, as other models don't share the build number. They are the unique identifiers for the cars in question (despite semantics on the description) and were taken out at the time (not just invented 50 years later) So, despite all the hoohah, none of these cars should really be eligible for the company's own Heritage Certificate. Why? Because the numbers don't appear in the company's order book for the period. This laying claim to '6 VINS at the time', do you not think this would have come to light with the written works of Andrew Whyte, Nigel Thorley, or perhaps someone like Peter Wilson who used to build the real lightweights? - The numbers are in the build book ledger of the time, as was shown on the programme, so the company recognised that they were at least considering building 6 more and registered their unique build numbers in their ledger of record. I realise that they're outsourcing heavily this time around, but if we are to take this as a true continuation of the original; then you can't do that, as it defeats the object of the exercise. Someone else has produced it and the company is naively trying to add a validity to it. Its falling flat though - they're a nice piece of engineering but everyone knows where they came from, who made them, and what they really are. Order one from RS panels, get a C&G engine and get the JDC to agree its made from period parts and the DVLA will sign it off as an E-type for a fraction of the price. I think you will find that JLR will have wrapped up exclusivity clauses in their dealings to prevent exactly what you say. Plus the DVLA recognise these as homologated vehicles from the era, which do not comply with current SVA regs, hence why they are not 'road legal' in the UK. Lets look again at how much 'Jaguar' is in these. Assuming I bought one of these cars. Could I get specialist parts for it through a Jaguar dealer (can for the production E-type.)? No. - try doing that for the original 12 either... Can I get parts direct from Jaguar through the JDHT parts scheme (can for the production E-type) No. Could I have done with an original car, bought from the factory at the time? Yes. - But not now as you elude too above. Can I walk into CMC, RS Panels, and get the bits? Yes. I can check, but I doubt these will be on free vend for contractual reasons. As for Pressed Steel Fisher supplying bodies, that was largely for the saloon cars, and Jaguar later became part of the same company through BMC (later BL). Pressed Steel never made the E-type either, it was Abbey Panels, so its pointless. And neither built the lightweights, they were put built at Browns Lane -same as the C-types, D-types, XJ13 and all the true legends. - so were these 6 lightweights also built at Browns Lane "why should the likes of Eagle etc be able to cream off the profit, it's about time the original manufacturer had some of it as well." There's your problem. If Jaguar wanted the money they should have protected their rights to the name and shape better - as do the German companies. Keep up the good work, tell your bosses the F-type badly needs to go play on the Mulsanne. We need something British to cheer for. ;) Regards, Rich
I would suggest if this is to continue its moved to general discussion. Although its pretty clear myself and Rich are on different sides of this argument and unlikely to be swayed from our views....... Nice cars all the same :cool: