By: snafu352
- 12th August 2015 at 12:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As for numbers, I do not think that anyone knows - whether private agency or State. I believe, as a matter of deliberate policy, that disinformation was and is the order of the day.
Its simple really. If no one knows or, claims they do not know, then no one can construct an argument against uncontrolled immigration or, at least one that is based on correct statistics. Those supporters of uncontrolled immigration continued with their drive to remodel society and left their opponents flapping listlessly on the sidelines reduced to impotent fury.
I can think of no other reason as to why, when the policy of unrestricted immigration was first covertly established under the unlamented Govt. of the noble Blair, the numbers of incomers weren't collated. They were all allocated insurance numbers; the job would have been so easy. Could it be that it was deliberate policy ?
In a subjective way, look around a big city such as London or Birmingham or Manchester and you will see readily how much our country is altered. All, without consultation with or permission by the majority.
Convenient that. For your viewpoint.
But really?
That's some conspiracy theory you have going there.
There's an early book by a chap, now sadly deceased, by the name of Mike Lunnon-Wood. It tells the tale of Ireland being taken over by chaps of a middle eastern type, the Palestinians with support from Libya, the Brits then wade in and save the day. (with a wee bit of help from some Irish patriots.)
Very good writing if you like that type of thing but the initial premise is bonkers. You are essentially describing the same thing in Britain. You are bonkers. For your scenario to have occurred with planning as you assert the number of folk involved would almost guarantee evidence of such a conspiracy would appear, the number of people asserting that it has and thus presumably searching for the evidence would also almost certainly ensure that any such evidence would emerge. None has.
My mistake here is probably in thinking that conspiracy theorists are actually looking for real evidence as a normal person would!
(His later books are very very good and based on believable scenarios. Kings Shilling, Long Reach and Heraklion Blue are all military novels and my favourite Let Not the Deep is a story concerning the RNLI. Thoroughly recommended.)
By: Bruce
- 12th August 2015 at 12:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I doubt there is a left wing revival in the UK.
There is one in The Labour Party, but at the moment that party is an irrelevancy.
Moggy
Perhaps not quite as I described it. What there is, is a jump leftwards amongst those with left leaning tendencies, which will fill a political void occupied only by the Greens in England. The left has not had a voice in many years, so it is no surprise that there is some enthusiasm in certain parts of society. It may, also cancel out some of the UKIP support.
By: charliehunt
- 12th August 2015 at 13:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
People can and do jump about as much as they like between elections but when crunch time arrives in May 2020, and assuming Corbyn remains leader if he is actually elected leader, soft labour will either abstain or vote Tory, just as a large number of centrist Tories voted for Blair in 1997. In fact 2020 might be the obverse of the 1997 coin, giving the Tories another decade in government.
By: John Green
- 12th August 2015 at 13:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't know Charlie - but there must be an answer somewhere.
John - I suspect that this left wing revival in the UK is more than just a flash in the pan. People are looking for answers which the centre right and centre left have failed to give them. Its one of the reasons for the rise of Nigel and his merry men.
I found this earlier - which is not directly related to the issue of immigration, but has some bearing. So many people still think an immigrant is someone with different coloured skin, AND believe that dealing with immigration will mean that all people born in this country who are not ethnically white, would be sent elsewhere. Mind you, there are also those who honestly believed that Stephen Spielberg bagged a triceratops..
They, whoever 'they' are, will not get answers, at least not any that suit the majority. Contrary to the opinion of some, I'm no great enthusiast of the 'right' but, I do think that on the whole they are - rather than the left - more inclined to a wider tolerance of others opinions.
By my interpretation, the 'left' have always pursued a narrow and focused approach to their political agendas.
As for your link. I found that very depressing if true. It did read to me as slightly OTT. In my circle of acquaintances and friends I know of no one who has ever expressed sentiments such as those quoted. Have we entirely forgotten: "treat others as you yourself would be treated ".
By: Meddle
- 12th August 2015 at 14:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One has to hope that Corbyn gets the labour leadership.
He can loudly proclaim all the left wing dross and at the same time virtually guarantee that Labour will remain unelectable. It's good to hear the opposing views (as long as nobody tries to put them into practice).
Moggy
I always hear that things were better in the past. Corbyn plans to take us back to the '70s, one rolling blackout at a time. :applause:
By: Beermat
- 12th August 2015 at 15:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OK, having broken my vow in another (less serious) thread..
Perhaps if people stopped spouting the complete lie that immigrants (or anyone, for that matter) have money thrown at them by the DSS, then those that ARE planning economic migration to the UK would think twice (especially from France, where in fact they receive more state aid than the UK would ever give). At the moment, the word coming from the UK press (and this forum) is that all they have to do is find their way to a Jobcentre and they are made instantly and for life. This is completely untrue - and it is this that needs to be painted on the white cliffs.
As for movement to the left - I think it's more of a correction towards a balanced debate, where questions are being asked and the answers given by those like Jeremy Corbyn that think beyond capital (and Capita) are listened to (whether considered right or wrong). Nothing wrong with that!
By: John Green
- 12th August 2015 at 16:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Beermat
What other explanation can there be ? If the migrants aren't attracted by British gold - as some on here claim - then what is the attraction ? If the media are to be believed; if, what my TV night after night relays to me is untrue, then what is pulling in this frenzied mob to our shores ?
Are payments to these migrants - most on par with other EU destinations - more readily obtainable ? Are their in this country fewer hoops to jump thru'? Have they any idea what this place is like in winter ?
Is there some other benefit apart from money that makes them come in their masses?
Perhaps it is the reputation of British women who allegedly will mate with a donkey if there is no other alternative.
By: Bruce
- 12th August 2015 at 16:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If we consider that the proportion of people looking to come specifically here is low compared to other countries, why do others choose those countries?
By: Beermat
- 12th August 2015 at 16:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
..as for the mating habits of British women.. well, even I did pretty well in the nightclubs of Liverpool for a while back there (despite not having a perm or a moustache), so maybe there's some truth in it.
By: G-BIKI
- 12th August 2015 at 17:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This problem has been slowly increasing since the mid 80's. Because all kinds of "do-gooders" took pity on these persons and let the one's who are freeloaders stay, it has turned into an industry. lees than 10% are genuine asylum seekers(I know because my wife has to deal with some of them, ie documents) The rest are here for the gravy train. The Dutch government has slashed care for the elderly/public health and the OAP because there is no money in the kitty. But there is money to spend on thousands( yes thousands) of so called asylum seekers. Why come all the way to Germany/Sweden/Holland/UK and not stay in Romania/Bulgaria/Greece/Turkey.... Might it be that life is not so plush there.... Final thought: How many refugees did the Saudi's/Gulf State's take in last year....
And no I am no racist, my wife is from Asia......
By: Meddle
- 12th August 2015 at 17:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Who is responsible for 'gravy train' becoming the go-to metaphor for you angry right winger types? Littlejohn? There is a whole vista of metaphor out there, get creative!
By: charliehunt
- 12th August 2015 at 17:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
G-BIKI - good. Some first hand experience. So why are they so desperate to catch our gravy train when they would do much better catching the French one and the same in several other European countries?
In the Middle East I believe Turkey and Lebanon have an immigration problem next to which ours pales into insignificance.
By: Meddle
- 12th August 2015 at 17:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My money is on Corbyn being chosen to head the Labour Party now, to be replaced by the other Miliband a year or so before the next election.
Moggy
Trusting that the labour party doesn't splinter in the prevailing period. Corbyn seems like a return to oldschool Labour form, complete with radical hat, radical beard and open-neck'd shirt. Re-nationalising the railways doesn't seem like the sort of priority or policy the Blairite centre-right Labour party of the last few years would consider campaign material. Corbyn isn't exactly on course to unify the Labour party, whilst Diane Abbott and Alastair Campbell come to (Twitter) blows over Corbyn's role within the party. It looks rather like a political party in the midst of an implosion, and I don't see how a bait 'n' switch with the nerdier, and infinitely less sellable of the two Millipedes, will help either.
By: John Green
- 12th August 2015 at 17:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If we consider that the proportion of people looking to come specifically here is low compared to other countries, why do others choose those countries?
There may well not be any clear cut answer here.
We don't know that do we ? Because apparently no one has been counting. However, there is a clue. A clue provided by Dave himself when he made a pre election pledge to reduce immigration to 'tens of thousands'.
That begs the question: If the reduction is to that nett figure, what is the gross ? Hundreds of thousands must be the answer. So there Bruce, is a broad set of statistics. It seems that this country has 'unknowingly' been importing hundreds of thousands of immigrants for the last twenty or so years. That's why we're full up.
By: John Green
- 12th August 2015 at 17:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Who is responsible for 'gravy train' becoming the go-to metaphor for you angry right winger types? Littlejohn? There is a whole vista of metaphor out there, get creative!
By: Lincoln 7
- 12th August 2015 at 18:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's oft been said to me, that if we hadn't won the War, we would be speaking German now. Well, in the last few yrs, I have learned a few phrases of Polish, Ukrainian, and Lithuanian, all without having to go to night school.........:)
Jim.
Lincoln .7
By: Bruce
- 12th August 2015 at 18:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We don't know that do we ? Because apparently no one has been counting. However, there is a clue. A clue provided by Dave himself when he made a pre election pledge to reduce immigration to 'tens of thousands'.
That begs the question: If the reduction is to that nett figure, what is the gross ? Hundreds of thousands must be the answer. So there Bruce, is a broad set of statistics. It seems that this country has 'unknowingly' been importing hundreds of thousands of immigrants for the last twenty or so years. That's why we're full up.
John,
There are statistics for everything - there just are. Someone knows the answer. Someone has been counting.
I find it interesting that there doesn't seem to be an official answer. Perhaps I shall look deeper.
I am quite certain that the problem is not as big as is being suggested. Its a great political football..
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 12th August 2015 at 12:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I doubt there is a left wing revival in the UK.
There is one in The Labour Party, but at the moment that party is an irrelevancy.
Moggy
Posts: 2,248
By: snafu352 - 12th August 2015 at 12:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Convenient that. For your viewpoint.
But really?
That's some conspiracy theory you have going there.
There's an early book by a chap, now sadly deceased, by the name of Mike Lunnon-Wood. It tells the tale of Ireland being taken over by chaps of a middle eastern type, the Palestinians with support from Libya, the Brits then wade in and save the day. (with a wee bit of help from some Irish patriots.)
Very good writing if you like that type of thing but the initial premise is bonkers. You are essentially describing the same thing in Britain. You are bonkers. For your scenario to have occurred with planning as you assert the number of folk involved would almost guarantee evidence of such a conspiracy would appear, the number of people asserting that it has and thus presumably searching for the evidence would also almost certainly ensure that any such evidence would emerge. None has.
My mistake here is probably in thinking that conspiracy theorists are actually looking for real evidence as a normal person would!
(His later books are very very good and based on believable scenarios. Kings Shilling, Long Reach and Heraklion Blue are all military novels and my favourite Let Not the Deep is a story concerning the RNLI. Thoroughly recommended.)
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 12th August 2015 at 12:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Perhaps not quite as I described it. What there is, is a jump leftwards amongst those with left leaning tendencies, which will fill a political void occupied only by the Greens in England. The left has not had a voice in many years, so it is no surprise that there is some enthusiasm in certain parts of society. It may, also cancel out some of the UKIP support.
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 12th August 2015 at 13:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
People can and do jump about as much as they like between elections but when crunch time arrives in May 2020, and assuming Corbyn remains leader if he is actually elected leader, soft labour will either abstain or vote Tory, just as a large number of centrist Tories voted for Blair in 1997. In fact 2020 might be the obverse of the 1997 coin, giving the Tories another decade in government.
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 12th August 2015 at 13:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
They, whoever 'they' are, will not get answers, at least not any that suit the majority. Contrary to the opinion of some, I'm no great enthusiast of the 'right' but, I do think that on the whole they are - rather than the left - more inclined to a wider tolerance of others opinions.
By my interpretation, the 'left' have always pursued a narrow and focused approach to their political agendas.
As for your link. I found that very depressing if true. It did read to me as slightly OTT. In my circle of acquaintances and friends I know of no one who has ever expressed sentiments such as those quoted. Have we entirely forgotten: "treat others as you yourself would be treated ".
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 12th August 2015 at 14:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I always hear that things were better in the past. Corbyn plans to take us back to the '70s, one rolling blackout at a time. :applause:
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 12th August 2015 at 15:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OK, having broken my vow in another (less serious) thread..
Perhaps if people stopped spouting the complete lie that immigrants (or anyone, for that matter) have money thrown at them by the DSS, then those that ARE planning economic migration to the UK would think twice (especially from France, where in fact they receive more state aid than the UK would ever give). At the moment, the word coming from the UK press (and this forum) is that all they have to do is find their way to a Jobcentre and they are made instantly and for life. This is completely untrue - and it is this that needs to be painted on the white cliffs.
As for movement to the left - I think it's more of a correction towards a balanced debate, where questions are being asked and the answers given by those like Jeremy Corbyn that think beyond capital (and Capita) are listened to (whether considered right or wrong). Nothing wrong with that!
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 12th August 2015 at 16:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Beermat
What other explanation can there be ? If the migrants aren't attracted by British gold - as some on here claim - then what is the attraction ? If the media are to be believed; if, what my TV night after night relays to me is untrue, then what is pulling in this frenzied mob to our shores ?
Are payments to these migrants - most on par with other EU destinations - more readily obtainable ? Are their in this country fewer hoops to jump thru'? Have they any idea what this place is like in winter ?
Is there some other benefit apart from money that makes them come in their masses?
Perhaps it is the reputation of British women who allegedly will mate with a donkey if there is no other alternative.
I'm at a loss. Who knows ?
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 12th August 2015 at 16:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If we consider that the proportion of people looking to come specifically here is low compared to other countries, why do others choose those countries?
There may well not be any clear cut answer here.
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 12th August 2015 at 16:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
..as for the mating habits of British women.. well, even I did pretty well in the nightclubs of Liverpool for a while back there (despite not having a perm or a moustache), so maybe there's some truth in it.
Posts: 110
By: G-BIKI - 12th August 2015 at 17:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This problem has been slowly increasing since the mid 80's. Because all kinds of "do-gooders" took pity on these persons and let the one's who are freeloaders stay, it has turned into an industry. lees than 10% are genuine asylum seekers(I know because my wife has to deal with some of them, ie documents) The rest are here for the gravy train. The Dutch government has slashed care for the elderly/public health and the OAP because there is no money in the kitty. But there is money to spend on thousands( yes thousands) of so called asylum seekers. Why come all the way to Germany/Sweden/Holland/UK and not stay in Romania/Bulgaria/Greece/Turkey.... Might it be that life is not so plush there.... Final thought: How many refugees did the Saudi's/Gulf State's take in last year....
And no I am no racist, my wife is from Asia......
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 12th August 2015 at 17:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My money is on Corbyn being chosen to head the Labour Party now, to be replaced by the other Miliband a year or so before the next election.
Moggy
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 12th August 2015 at 17:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Who is responsible for 'gravy train' becoming the go-to metaphor for you angry right winger types? Littlejohn? There is a whole vista of metaphor out there, get creative!
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 12th August 2015 at 17:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
G-BIKI - good. Some first hand experience. So why are they so desperate to catch our gravy train when they would do much better catching the French one and the same in several other European countries?
In the Middle East I believe Turkey and Lebanon have an immigration problem next to which ours pales into insignificance.
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 12th August 2015 at 17:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Trusting that the labour party doesn't splinter in the prevailing period. Corbyn seems like a return to oldschool Labour form, complete with radical hat, radical beard and open-neck'd shirt. Re-nationalising the railways doesn't seem like the sort of priority or policy the Blairite centre-right Labour party of the last few years would consider campaign material. Corbyn isn't exactly on course to unify the Labour party, whilst Diane Abbott and Alastair Campbell come to (Twitter) blows over Corbyn's role within the party. It looks rather like a political party in the midst of an implosion, and I don't see how a bait 'n' switch with the nerdier, and infinitely less sellable of the two Millipedes, will help either.
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 12th August 2015 at 17:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We don't know that do we ? Because apparently no one has been counting. However, there is a clue. A clue provided by Dave himself when he made a pre election pledge to reduce immigration to 'tens of thousands'.
That begs the question: If the reduction is to that nett figure, what is the gross ? Hundreds of thousands must be the answer. So there Bruce, is a broad set of statistics. It seems that this country has 'unknowingly' been importing hundreds of thousands of immigrants for the last twenty or so years. That's why we're full up.
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 12th August 2015 at 17:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We like the ones you can understand.
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 12th August 2015 at 18:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's oft been said to me, that if we hadn't won the War, we would be speaking German now. Well, in the last few yrs, I have learned a few phrases of Polish, Ukrainian, and Lithuanian, all without having to go to night school.........:)
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 12th August 2015 at 18:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
John,
There are statistics for everything - there just are. Someone knows the answer. Someone has been counting.
I find it interesting that there doesn't seem to be an official answer. Perhaps I shall look deeper.
I am quite certain that the problem is not as big as is being suggested. Its a great political football..
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 12th August 2015 at 19:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why would Dave, presumably in the know, refer to tens of thousands ?