By: charliehunt
- 12th August 2015 at 19:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Bruce
But that's the problem with statistics isn't it? Who is actually counting, how are they counting, and who are they counting. As I said a few posts back there are numerous organisations producing contradictory figures. So what are we to believe?
By: G-BIKI
- 12th August 2015 at 19:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Say on average a country takes in 5000 a year and that we are talking about at least six EU nations(UK/F/BRD/NL/S/A)
Each persons cost about 2000 euro's a month(housing/clothing/food/lawyers/staff at centre's/civil servants etc) = 720 000 000 per anum
Now multiply that by 25(stream started in mid 80's but we'll just pretend it started in 1990) =18 000 000 000 Money which could have been better spent. No wonder our government's are broke....
By: Meddle
- 12th August 2015 at 20:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There are statistics for everything - there just are. Someone knows the answer. Someone has been counting...
All very good, but who has been counting and what methods have they been using? Any interpolation, or do you reckon everybody fresh off the boat is somehow accounted for? Yes, there are 'statistics for everything', but it doesn't mean they are accurate or even remotely good.
By: Bruce
- 12th August 2015 at 21:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, what, we just go on 'feelings'?
Come on people, we can do better than that. In all this, we have one set of data, which we all admit cannot be perfect. I simply don't believe there isn't more than that.
i can't take a position based on what we have. Too much opinion. Not enough fact.
By: bazv
- 12th August 2015 at 21:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The trouble is - the big problem is not so much about 'now' - the big problem is in the future ! Unless this problem is strongly tackled now - how many annual migrants do we end up with in (say) 10 years time - how many do we need - 1 million ? - 10 million ? - 30 million ? Africa/Middle East has an almost unlimited supply of people - we cannot take them all !
If we are not going to be extremely selective about who we let into the country - why bother with border control at all ?
Also one facet often overlooked is birth rates amongst immigrants.
It is quite obvious that our NHS is really struggling to cope with the present population and growth rate - the 'let em all in' brigade are not even thinking along practical lines.
By: charliehunt
- 12th August 2015 at 22:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fortunately or unfortunately it is not up to us to do anything about it.
In amongst the figures we are given there will be those which reflect the reality of the situation. Politicians and others will use whichever figures best suit their prejudices.
By: bazv
- 12th August 2015 at 22:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The figures are not so important at the moment - the situation is out of control across europe,it is the pressure of those attempting entry now and those in the future that is important.
As Bruce posted - no easy answers here but the situation will not improve by ignoring it !
By: charliehunt
- 13th August 2015 at 06:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well that's stating the bl*****ing obvious. And I am have no doubt the affected countries, of which the UK is hardly a major sufferer, are spending every waking hour attempting to find solutions. It seems bizarre to suggest the problem is being ignored, or did I misunderstand?
By: bazv
- 13th August 2015 at 06:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All I am saying is that one has to look ahead in life - things will not remain as they are and no country is equipped for mass migration !
The problem may not be being ignored but is being 'tackled' at the speed of a tortoise - this has been going on for years and has been swept under the carpet for far to long !
By: charliehunt
- 13th August 2015 at 08:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No that's true and migration has been taking place since the beginning of civilisation and usually to mutual benefit. I have no easy solutions so cannot be overcritical of what is happening. Those countries from which the majority are coming, Sudan, Eritrea, Somalia, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya are clearly grim places to be and perhaps we night see things differently if we spent some time there, instead of slinging critical remarks from the comfort of our own homes across a public forum.
If you do have some realistic ideas to resolve what is an intractable problem I am sure they would be appreciated....:)
By: Bruce
- 13th August 2015 at 08:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The figures are not so important at the moment - the situation is out of control across europe,it is the pressure of those attempting entry now and those in the future that is important.
As Bruce posted - no easy answers here but the situation will not improve by ignoring it !
Out of control? 0.027% across Europe if the guardian article is to be believed.
By: bazv
- 13th August 2015 at 10:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Figures are usually historic/out of date - as I said previously - it is not the figures that are important - it is more the trend of the current situation !
Look at Kos and other places - the situation has deteriorated within the last few months !
It is already a crisis in certain areas - no country is equipped to handle a mass influx !
By: charliehunt
- 13th August 2015 at 10:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Actually the figures are extremely important as is the trend you refer to, but in Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Malta etc, then the word crisis becomes relevant. Elsewhere it does not.
By: John Green
- 13th August 2015 at 10:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Let me ask a question - not for the first time - of all the commentators on this subject:
What is it about Britain that makes this country - apparently, the destination of choice. Why do these migrants ignore the attractions of Turkey, Greece, Italy etc. in favour of these shores? What is the lure ?
Don't tell me that is not the case. Calais proves the point. These people could easily have claimed elsewhere but instead chose Britain, why ?
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 12th August 2015 at 19:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Bruce
But that's the problem with statistics isn't it? Who is actually counting, how are they counting, and who are they counting. As I said a few posts back there are numerous organisations producing contradictory figures. So what are we to believe?
Posts: 110
By: G-BIKI - 12th August 2015 at 19:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Say on average a country takes in 5000 a year and that we are talking about at least six EU nations(UK/F/BRD/NL/S/A)
Each persons cost about 2000 euro's a month(housing/clothing/food/lawyers/staff at centre's/civil servants etc) = 720 000 000 per anum
Now multiply that by 25(stream started in mid 80's but we'll just pretend it started in 1990) =18 000 000 000 Money which could have been better spent. No wonder our government's are broke....
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 12th August 2015 at 20:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
£18 billion in whichever currency you choose is a pinprick as a percentage of 25 years of EU GDP.
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 12th August 2015 at 20:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All very good, but who has been counting and what methods have they been using? Any interpolation, or do you reckon everybody fresh off the boat is somehow accounted for? Yes, there are 'statistics for everything', but it doesn't mean they are accurate or even remotely good.
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 12th August 2015 at 20:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And are often contradictory which makes them worthless.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 12th August 2015 at 21:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, what, we just go on 'feelings'?
Come on people, we can do better than that. In all this, we have one set of data, which we all admit cannot be perfect. I simply don't believe there isn't more than that.
i can't take a position based on what we have. Too much opinion. Not enough fact.
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 12th August 2015 at 21:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The trouble is - the big problem is not so much about 'now' - the big problem is in the future ! Unless this problem is strongly tackled now - how many annual migrants do we end up with in (say) 10 years time - how many do we need - 1 million ? - 10 million ? - 30 million ? Africa/Middle East has an almost unlimited supply of people - we cannot take them all !
If we are not going to be extremely selective about who we let into the country - why bother with border control at all ?
Also one facet often overlooked is birth rates amongst immigrants.
It is quite obvious that our NHS is really struggling to cope with the present population and growth rate - the 'let em all in' brigade are not even thinking along practical lines.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 12th August 2015 at 21:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But if the ethnic white man is not reproducing at a rate which even replaces themselves, then what do we do?
There are no easy answers here. I am certainly not advocating open doors, as that is clearly wrong.
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 12th August 2015 at 22:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fortunately or unfortunately it is not up to us to do anything about it.
In amongst the figures we are given there will be those which reflect the reality of the situation. Politicians and others will use whichever figures best suit their prejudices.
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 12th August 2015 at 22:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The figures are not so important at the moment - the situation is out of control across europe,it is the pressure of those attempting entry now and those in the future that is important.
As Bruce posted - no easy answers here but the situation will not improve by ignoring it !
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 13th August 2015 at 06:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well that's stating the bl*****ing obvious. And I am have no doubt the affected countries, of which the UK is hardly a major sufferer, are spending every waking hour attempting to find solutions. It seems bizarre to suggest the problem is being ignored, or did I misunderstand?
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 13th August 2015 at 06:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All I am saying is that one has to look ahead in life - things will not remain as they are and no country is equipped for mass migration !
The problem may not be being ignored but is being 'tackled' at the speed of a tortoise - this has been going on for years and has been swept under the carpet for far to long !
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 13th August 2015 at 08:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No that's true and migration has been taking place since the beginning of civilisation and usually to mutual benefit. I have no easy solutions so cannot be overcritical of what is happening. Those countries from which the majority are coming, Sudan, Eritrea, Somalia, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya are clearly grim places to be and perhaps we night see things differently if we spent some time there, instead of slinging critical remarks from the comfort of our own homes across a public forum.
If you do have some realistic ideas to resolve what is an intractable problem I am sure they would be appreciated....:)
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 13th August 2015 at 08:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Out of control? 0.027% across Europe if the guardian article is to be believed.
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 13th August 2015 at 09:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Eugenics apparently. :stupid:
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 13th August 2015 at 10:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Figures are usually historic/out of date - as I said previously - it is not the figures that are important - it is more the trend of the current situation !
Look at Kos and other places - the situation has deteriorated within the last few months !
It is already a crisis in certain areas - no country is equipped to handle a mass influx !
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 13th August 2015 at 10:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Actually the figures are extremely important as is the trend you refer to, but in Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Malta etc, then the word crisis becomes relevant. Elsewhere it does not.
Solutions, Baz....?:)
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 13th August 2015 at 10:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'll answer for Baz. Just say NO and mean it !
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 13th August 2015 at 10:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Let me ask a question - not for the first time - of all the commentators on this subject:
What is it about Britain that makes this country - apparently, the destination of choice. Why do these migrants ignore the attractions of Turkey, Greece, Italy etc. in favour of these shores? What is the lure ?
Don't tell me that is not the case. Calais proves the point. These people could easily have claimed elsewhere but instead chose Britain, why ?
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 13th August 2015 at 10:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If fewer than 5% of all the migrants/refugees crossing the Med are turning up at Calais, how does this make us 'the destination of choice'?
Moggy