By: charliehunt
- 8th August 2015 at 21:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Personal opinions about an individual and their talent or lack of it have to be separated from an individual's merits as a human being because of their contribution to society in general. And the public face of an individual might be very different from the private face.
I couldn't stand the woman but she clearly had a legion of fans who worshipped her.
By: Meddle
- 10th August 2015 at 12:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I remember a very similar thread we had in July 2011 after Amy Winehouse had died. She too received her share of "No great loss!"; "Couldn't stand her!"; "No Talent at all!" etc, etc. Comments like these give us a clear picture of who we are dealing with here!
Peter
I would find it a little unfair to make such comments about Amy Winehouse. Regardless of if you like her music or not, it is hard to deny that she had talent as a singer. She seems inherently a tragic figure, stuck on a downward path of self destruction in a bid to keep her music valid and meaningful. She died far too young, but it seemed inevitable.
This thread notified us that Cilla had passed. I see any comment as fair game. There is sufficient testimony from many different sources, all suggesting that in person she was an unpleasant character. If you don't wish to hear this, there has been endless eulogies from luvvies and old-media types. The needlessly maudlin and attention seeking faux grief from the general public, a trend which I dare say started with Princess 'our' Diana, seems as vacuous as ever. If they are asked for their opinion then surely I am being asked for mine as well and given that we are discussing a nouveau riche TV presenter, who sung a handful of somebody else's songs a half century ago, and who apparently had minimal consideration for anybody she believed beneath her whilst peddling the Professional Scouser routine (ala Jimmy Tarbuck), I have no reason to either pretend that Cilla meant a lot to me or that I am going to pretend that she was a great person.
By: Moggy C
- 10th August 2015 at 13:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
.. Spoke like one of Mersey's finest
As an expatriate scouser I'll take issue with that. When she had just left The Cavern she had a very thick, Scotland Road Scouse accent. By the time of Blind Date and Surprise Surprise she appeared to have spiralled off into a sort of pastiche that was a bit like scouse, but mostly like nothing ever heard within twenty miles of the Liver Birds (The statues, not the TV prog)
By: John Green
- 10th August 2015 at 13:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The trouble - for them, that is, is that they eventually swallow hook line and sinker the instinct for celebrity status eagerly conferred upon them by a rather dopey public.
So, they finish up believing that they, despite indifferent talent - in some cases, are God's gift and deserving automatically of all possible advantage in their already gilded existence.
Why ? They're just singers of popular songs. They're not pilots for God's sake !
By: charliehunt
- 10th August 2015 at 14:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The trouble is - for them, that is, that they eventually swallow hook line and sinker the instinct for celebrity status eagerly conferred upon them by a rather dopey public.
So, they finish up believing that they, despite indifferent talent - in some cases, are God's gift and deserving automatically of all possible advantage in their already gilded existence.
!
And more generally applies to a rather large percentage of the glitterati who litter our TV screens and other media daily.....
Sad to see fellow professional scousers Ringo and Macca couldn't make the funeral. Maybe they couldn't find Liverpool on the map? Or perhaps they were helping themselves to Cilla's stereo? :highly_amused:
By: Beermat
- 21st August 2015 at 12:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Woah, hang on. Calm down..
Seriously, there's nothing to suggest that Scousers are any more prone to robberies than anyone else, it's all just lazy shorthand. I am not a Scouser, amateur or professional. But I spent my formative adult years there (18 - 30), right in the 'thick of it' (Edge Lane/Kensington for those like Moggy who actually know the City rather than the stereotype).
I learned a lot there about honesty and responsibility when the chips are down (as they were) and who possessed those traits, and who didn't. I do get a bit disgruntled by the unthinking 'all scousers are criminals' nonsense, whether intended to raise a laugh, or not - not having a go, it's easy to do, and I am guilty of stereotyping others as well.
Re. Macca not being there.. I understand (admittedly from gossip) that in fact Macca was not exactly the lady's biggest fan, for a lot of the reasons that other people who have met her have mentioned. And yes, that 'Accent'.. what on earth was that? You'd think, being musical, that she'd have an 'ear' - especially for the accent she grew up with!
It is sad that others feel sad, but.. there was a strand of entertainers who worked out, in simpler times, that sincerity was everything. If you could fake that, you had it made.
By: Meddle
- 21st August 2015 at 13:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree with your last paragraph. As a Scot I'm used to the usual stereotypes about us as well. Our cheapness (probably born in part out of Presbyterian attitudes), our penchant for alcohol, our anti-English sentiments, our overly simplistic Braveheart-tinged national pride which is indicative of our general low IQ (often touted by the UKIP crowd, make of that what you will).
Having said all that, overly sentimental fair-weather scousers (who all grew up on 'Scotty' road) who spent most of their adult lives avoiding the place unless it was for their own strategic advantage, come across as disingenuous idiots and perhaps some crude stereotypes offset the farce slightly. I know one or two people who took the death of Cilla quite badly, though none of them ever met her or knew her personally in any way. As I said before, this post-Diana form of overly public mourning seems like distasteful window dressing to me. Ms Black's family are entitled to grieve, in private, but using her death to cement her reputation as a true scouser, as the tabloids have done, seems at best misguided and at worst woefully short sighted. I'm surprised that the media is so willing to overlook Cilla's famous, and widely reported, attitude and personality offstage for the sake of peddling a 'rags to riches, backstreet Liverpudlian done good' narrative. Didn't they do the same for Savile? Different scale of a problem for sure, but that saccharine one-sided coverage of the death of somebody with 1) a bad reputation and 2) a sycophantic following of people who never met her would perhaps call for some slightly more even-handed journalism, no? Why wipe the slate clean and carp on at length about Sir Cliff's vocal performance?
By: charliehunt
- 21st August 2015 at 14:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Totally agree Meddle. And Beermat, I spent about 5 years working in Liverpool, on and off - more on than off - and would just say that my experience is somewhat different from yours!! Was never happier when I didn't have to return....so we each have our own experiences.
And never forget that Cliff said she was probably the greatest TV presenter of all time!! Gawd help us!!
By: Moggy C
- 21st August 2015 at 14:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For me it was the hyperbole. I know you have to say good stuff after someone karks it, but much of it was as over-the-top as the 'Princess of our Hearts' bollox for Diana Spencer.
Scousers' reputation? We just laugh along. No point in being offended. Anyway, compared with "It's compulsory to be gay" in Manchester and "Thick as .. " for the Brummies, it's not that bad a stereotype.
I have found once or twice in situations that looked as if they might turn physical, cranking up the Liverpool accent did no harm.
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 8th August 2015 at 21:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Personal opinions about an individual and their talent or lack of it have to be separated from an individual's merits as a human being because of their contribution to society in general. And the public face of an individual might be very different from the private face.
I couldn't stand the woman but she clearly had a legion of fans who worshipped her.
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 10th August 2015 at 12:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I would find it a little unfair to make such comments about Amy Winehouse. Regardless of if you like her music or not, it is hard to deny that she had talent as a singer. She seems inherently a tragic figure, stuck on a downward path of self destruction in a bid to keep her music valid and meaningful. She died far too young, but it seemed inevitable.
This thread notified us that Cilla had passed. I see any comment as fair game. There is sufficient testimony from many different sources, all suggesting that in person she was an unpleasant character. If you don't wish to hear this, there has been endless eulogies from luvvies and old-media types. The needlessly maudlin and attention seeking faux grief from the general public, a trend which I dare say started with Princess 'our' Diana, seems as vacuous as ever. If they are asked for their opinion then surely I am being asked for mine as well and given that we are discussing a nouveau riche TV presenter, who sung a handful of somebody else's songs a half century ago, and who apparently had minimal consideration for anybody she believed beneath her whilst peddling the Professional Scouser routine (ala Jimmy Tarbuck), I have no reason to either pretend that Cilla meant a lot to me or that I am going to pretend that she was a great person.
Sorry and all.
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 10th August 2015 at 13:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As an expatriate scouser I'll take issue with that. When she had just left The Cavern she had a very thick, Scotland Road Scouse accent. By the time of Blind Date and Surprise Surprise she appeared to have spiralled off into a sort of pastiche that was a bit like scouse, but mostly like nothing ever heard within twenty miles of the Liver Birds (The statues, not the TV prog)
Moggy
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 10th August 2015 at 13:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The trouble - for them, that is, is that they eventually swallow hook line and sinker the instinct for celebrity status eagerly conferred upon them by a rather dopey public.
So, they finish up believing that they, despite indifferent talent - in some cases, are God's gift and deserving automatically of all possible advantage in their already gilded existence.
Why ? They're just singers of popular songs. They're not pilots for God's sake !
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 10th August 2015 at 14:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And more generally applies to a rather large percentage of the glitterati who litter our TV screens and other media daily.....
Posts: 8,846
By: Newforest - 10th August 2015 at 15:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A truer note never spoken! :applause:
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 10th August 2015 at 16:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does that make you a Professional Scouser, ala Tarbuck, or a Wool? :D
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 10th August 2015 at 16:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Much like the late Ms White I can't revert to a recognisable Liverpolitan accent to save my life.
I guess I have just become a citiless wanderer.
Moggy
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 20th August 2015 at 11:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Haven't the family suffered enough?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-33991635
Moggy
Posts: 4,996
By: AlanR - 20th August 2015 at 12:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I assume you mean having Cliff sing at the funeral ?
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By: Moggy C - 20th August 2015 at 12:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
:D
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By: charliehunt - 20th August 2015 at 13:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And Jimmy Tarbuck and Paul O'Grady and more of the Liverpool mafia, no doubt.
Sir Cliff Richard: ""She took the country by storm because she became our greatest TV presenter, probably of all time." Really?
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 20th August 2015 at 22:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As seen elsewhere...
Buckinghamshire Police have thwarted a plot to rob Cilla Black's house whilst her funeral was underway.
It seems a shame that Buckinghamshire Police aren't more tolerant towards these scouser traditions.
Posts: 4,996
By: AlanR - 21st August 2015 at 07:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Love it :)
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By: Lincoln 7 - 21st August 2015 at 10:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The thing is though Alan, what Meddle has stated is a fact!!
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 21st August 2015 at 10:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There was indeed a hole discovered in the perimeter fence of Cilla's gaff, and as such Buckinghamshire police kept a close watch over the property.
http://news.sky.com/story/1535931/burglars-target-the-home-of-cilla-black
Sad to see fellow professional scousers Ringo and Macca couldn't make the funeral. Maybe they couldn't find Liverpool on the map? Or perhaps they were helping themselves to Cilla's stereo? :highly_amused:
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 21st August 2015 at 12:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Woah, hang on. Calm down..
Seriously, there's nothing to suggest that Scousers are any more prone to robberies than anyone else, it's all just lazy shorthand. I am not a Scouser, amateur or professional. But I spent my formative adult years there (18 - 30), right in the 'thick of it' (Edge Lane/Kensington for those like Moggy who actually know the City rather than the stereotype).
I learned a lot there about honesty and responsibility when the chips are down (as they were) and who possessed those traits, and who didn't. I do get a bit disgruntled by the unthinking 'all scousers are criminals' nonsense, whether intended to raise a laugh, or not - not having a go, it's easy to do, and I am guilty of stereotyping others as well.
Re. Macca not being there.. I understand (admittedly from gossip) that in fact Macca was not exactly the lady's biggest fan, for a lot of the reasons that other people who have met her have mentioned. And yes, that 'Accent'.. what on earth was that? You'd think, being musical, that she'd have an 'ear' - especially for the accent she grew up with!
It is sad that others feel sad, but.. there was a strand of entertainers who worked out, in simpler times, that sincerity was everything. If you could fake that, you had it made.
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 21st August 2015 at 13:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree with your last paragraph. As a Scot I'm used to the usual stereotypes about us as well. Our cheapness (probably born in part out of Presbyterian attitudes), our penchant for alcohol, our anti-English sentiments, our overly simplistic Braveheart-tinged national pride which is indicative of our general low IQ (often touted by the UKIP crowd, make of that what you will).
Having said all that, overly sentimental fair-weather scousers (who all grew up on 'Scotty' road) who spent most of their adult lives avoiding the place unless it was for their own strategic advantage, come across as disingenuous idiots and perhaps some crude stereotypes offset the farce slightly. I know one or two people who took the death of Cilla quite badly, though none of them ever met her or knew her personally in any way. As I said before, this post-Diana form of overly public mourning seems like distasteful window dressing to me. Ms Black's family are entitled to grieve, in private, but using her death to cement her reputation as a true scouser, as the tabloids have done, seems at best misguided and at worst woefully short sighted. I'm surprised that the media is so willing to overlook Cilla's famous, and widely reported, attitude and personality offstage for the sake of peddling a 'rags to riches, backstreet Liverpudlian done good' narrative. Didn't they do the same for Savile? Different scale of a problem for sure, but that saccharine one-sided coverage of the death of somebody with 1) a bad reputation and 2) a sycophantic following of people who never met her would perhaps call for some slightly more even-handed journalism, no? Why wipe the slate clean and carp on at length about Sir Cliff's vocal performance?
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 21st August 2015 at 14:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Totally agree Meddle. And Beermat, I spent about 5 years working in Liverpool, on and off - more on than off - and would just say that my experience is somewhat different from yours!! Was never happier when I didn't have to return....so we each have our own experiences.
And never forget that Cliff said she was probably the greatest TV presenter of all time!! Gawd help us!!
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 21st August 2015 at 14:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For me it was the hyperbole. I know you have to say good stuff after someone karks it, but much of it was as over-the-top as the 'Princess of our Hearts' bollox for Diana Spencer.
Scousers' reputation? We just laugh along. No point in being offended. Anyway, compared with "It's compulsory to be gay" in Manchester and "Thick as .. " for the Brummies, it's not that bad a stereotype.
I have found once or twice in situations that looked as if they might turn physical, cranking up the Liverpool accent did no harm.
Moggy