By: John Green
- 11th August 2015 at 10:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mikemeteor
An excellent summary. Wasn't Ludovic Kennedy's father the captain of a British armed merchantman that was involved in a sea battle of some note ? Was it the Rawalpindi ?
By: Mike meteor
- 11th August 2015 at 11:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Spot on.
Captain Edward Kennedy was posthumously Mentioned in Despatches for his unequal fight against both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau during which his ship, the Armed Merchant cruiser Rawalpindi was sunk. She mounted the grand total of eight six inch guns against eighteen eleven inch on the German vessels.
Considering that the captain of HMS Jervis Bay got the VC for a similar action I wonder if Kennedy was a little short changed.
By: snafu352
- 11th August 2015 at 11:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Apart from the Duke of York's engagement with Scharnhorst the others don't seem to crop up very much, it always seems to be the ones that were sunk that you hear of the most, the size of that list surprises me. :)
The Wikipedia pages for the classes and ships will give you a very quick overview of the engagements. considerably more action than you imagine.
Engage the Enemy More Closely: The Royal Navy in the Second World War by Correlli Barnett is an excellent read if Royal Navy actions in the Second World War are of interest. (I thoroughly recommend Correlli Barnett's writing in general actually.)
By: Mike meteor
- 11th August 2015 at 13:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Barnett is good, no doubt of it.
Two things have occurred as I waste this day off in idle recreation.
Firstly, I found out via the HMS Hood Association website that this bell is even more special than we thought. It was originally fitted to HMS Hood the battleship in Victorian times and so has served two Capital ships in it's lifetime.
Second, the wisest remark ever made about the loss of the Hood. Writing in the Times, shortly after the loss of the ship, Admiral Chatfield (who was Beatty's Flag Captain at Jutland), circumvented all the technical arguments that have surrounded Hood's sinking by stating that, ultimately, Hood was lost because she had to fight a ship twenty five years younger than she was. A cutting comment on Government parsimony in defence. Any application of the principal today, I wonder?
By: snafu352
- 11th August 2015 at 14:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Defence doesn't win votes until the objectionable folk are too close for comfort at which point the untroubled populace become troubled.
It does worry me that politicians (Who generally are about as knowledgeable as dead fish concerning anything that does not involve votes and obtaining them; a wonderful product of the superlative system we employ today where being a political creature is a lifelong employment rather than MP's serving as a duty after or alongside real employment.) and senior (serving) military folk (Who ought to and I suspect do, know better) plus the MoD are happy to allow patent falsehoods to emerge from their mouths such as our military is fully and well equipped.
Anybody who has the smallest modicum of understanding of military matters can at a glance see that the British military is woefully inadequate for the taskings that our worthless politicians demand of it.
In my view various British politicians since the end of the second world war and the majority post the end of the cold war are guilty of treason in respect of the armed forces.
By: waco
- 11th August 2015 at 15:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yep....hats off to the Mogster...
Wish they had saved a Flower Class Corvette in the UK.
They Canadians saved one....she is in Halifax I think, HMCS Sackville.
My Dad served on a couple...he joined up in 42.
We took him to Chatham recently, to the historic dockyard. He was based there.I don't think he was too keen on the idea at first but I
think he really enjoyed it in the end.
The whole family had a great day out ! I'd recommend it to anyone !
By: Mike meteor
- 11th August 2015 at 16:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Snafu,
Agree with you there.
If our intention is to have a Coastal Defence force, then fine and dandy - let's get ourselves a clutch of Fast Patrol Boats and some effective maritime patrol aircraft, (and not mention the most ludicrous of recent decisions to axe Nimrod without adequate replacement), and call it quits. But if, as British governments are wont to do, we wish to project foreign policy using our military forces as a strong arm, then for goodness sake, we HAVE to resource them properly.
At the risk of being censured for swearing, even Mrs Thatcher (!) came perilously close to messing up. If the Args had invaded the Falklands a few months later, as they intended, we would have been up a very dodgy creek; no aircraft carriers, no assault ships, fewer surface vessels.
Interesting, isn't it, to note how the current bunch of halfwitted hypocrites......oops, the Government, have forgotten all the lessons learned in 1982.....and 1956......and 1939 - 45, and permitted the Navy and the Air Force, to become the travesty of their former selves we now see?
Sorry....rant over!
By: AlanR
- 11th August 2015 at 17:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wish they had saved a Flower Class Corvette in the UK.
A chap I used to know in Southend, (now sadly deceased) served on a Flower Class Corvette during WWII.
I believe he was a marine. He had some stories to tell.
By: John Green
- 11th August 2015 at 17:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Echoing the theme of inferior equipment and insufficient numbers, I'm reading Dimbleby's account of the North African campaign. Apart from extremely dodgy leadership at the top, the British struggled for lack of a decent tank, self propelled anti tank artillery and most crucially, an infantry portable anti tank weapon.
The introduction of the American Grant tank helped and later still the Sherman but, it had its deficiencies. Some years later when I joined up we had a rather excellent portable anti tank weapon based on, I think, the American bazooka. We knew it as the 3.5 inch rocket launcher, and what a nice piece of kit. Very accurate.
By: Mike meteor
- 11th August 2015 at 17:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My grandfather was a Royal Marine and for many years all I knew was that he had been aboard HMS Warspite. Then one day he saw me building the old Airfix kit of same. He went upstairs and brought down a little tin box. And I was transfixed. Photos, medals, the odd paper. Turned out he was in several ships, was aboard Warspite when she was hit by a glider bomb and very badly damaged in 1943. Spent time in the States while she was being repaired. Earlier, he had been in the cruiser Southampton at the time of the Spanish Civil War, during which time the British ships worked in conjunction with several foreign vessels in an International Squadron. Some of them were German. Three years later we were at war.
He never spoke of it again and died not too long afterwards, but, as a youth of about fourteen, I had had an insight into something quite extraordinary to me. Never did find out what happened to his 'ditty box', but oh, the lost history that generation could have told!
By: Creaking Door
- 12th August 2015 at 00:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not strictly true... HMS Belfast has been mentioned already and HMCS Sackville, the last surviving Flower class corvette, is a museum vessel in Canada. HMS Alliance is preserved, having been launched in July 1945, the destroyer HMS Cavalier (commissioned 11/1944) is preserved, HMS Wellington, a 1934 sloop, is preserved as the headquarters ship of the Honourable Company of Master Mariners on the Victoria Embankment on the Thames. LCT7074, a landing craft tank, is under restoration in Portsmouth with a target date of 2019, the 75th anniversary of D-Day. The 1943 patrol boat HMS Medusa (ML1387) is preserved. The mini subs X24 (1944) and XE8 (1945) are both preserved. The Tribal class destroyer HMCS Haida (1942) is preserved in Canada. The River class frigate HMAS Diamantina (1944) is preserved in Australia, as are the Bathurst class corvettes HMAS Castlemaine and HMAS Whyalla (both 1942).
It is not easy to keep a huge hunk of metal like a warship preserved in Britain - we just don't have the weather for the mass survival of such beasts, nor the enthusiasm or (for that matter) the money.
I suppose I should have specified warships preserved in the United Kingdom; the Australians and Canadians put us to shame with some of the ships they have managed to preserve.
HMS Belfast is not a battleship, she is a cruiser. The other major ships and submarine that you mention, although it is good that they have made it into preservation, are not preserved in their wartime configuration.
We have the money, over £50billion of government money to lavish on sport, media and the arts in 2014, but you are absolutely correct when you say we, or rather the government, lacks the enthusiasm...
...look at the sorry history of the preservation of HMS Cavalier, or the failure by the government to find a measly million pounds to bring HMS Whimbrel back from Egypt, or the failure of a Conservative government (who owe more than most to the sacrifices of the Royal Navy) to save Falklands veteran HMS Plymouth from the breakers-yard in 2014 (or any government to save any surface warship from the Falklands for that matter)...
...still, money can always be found to save another old master 'for the nation'!
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 11th August 2015 at 10:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mikemeteor
An excellent summary. Wasn't Ludovic Kennedy's father the captain of a British armed merchantman that was involved in a sea battle of some note ? Was it the Rawalpindi ?
Posts: 197
By: Mike meteor - 11th August 2015 at 11:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Spot on.
Captain Edward Kennedy was posthumously Mentioned in Despatches for his unequal fight against both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau during which his ship, the Armed Merchant cruiser Rawalpindi was sunk. She mounted the grand total of eight six inch guns against eighteen eleven inch on the German vessels.
Considering that the captain of HMS Jervis Bay got the VC for a similar action I wonder if Kennedy was a little short changed.
Posts: 2,248
By: snafu352 - 11th August 2015 at 11:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Wikipedia pages for the classes and ships will give you a very quick overview of the engagements. considerably more action than you imagine.
Engage the Enemy More Closely: The Royal Navy in the Second World War by Correlli Barnett is an excellent read if Royal Navy actions in the Second World War are of interest. (I thoroughly recommend Correlli Barnett's writing in general actually.)
Posts: 197
By: Mike meteor - 11th August 2015 at 13:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Barnett is good, no doubt of it.
Two things have occurred as I waste this day off in idle recreation.
Firstly, I found out via the HMS Hood Association website that this bell is even more special than we thought. It was originally fitted to HMS Hood the battleship in Victorian times and so has served two Capital ships in it's lifetime.
Second, the wisest remark ever made about the loss of the Hood. Writing in the Times, shortly after the loss of the ship, Admiral Chatfield (who was Beatty's Flag Captain at Jutland), circumvented all the technical arguments that have surrounded Hood's sinking by stating that, ultimately, Hood was lost because she had to fight a ship twenty five years younger than she was. A cutting comment on Government parsimony in defence. Any application of the principal today, I wonder?
Posts: 2,248
By: snafu352 - 11th August 2015 at 14:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Defence doesn't win votes until the objectionable folk are too close for comfort at which point the untroubled populace become troubled.
It does worry me that politicians (Who generally are about as knowledgeable as dead fish concerning anything that does not involve votes and obtaining them; a wonderful product of the superlative system we employ today where being a political creature is a lifelong employment rather than MP's serving as a duty after or alongside real employment.) and senior (serving) military folk (Who ought to and I suspect do, know better) plus the MoD are happy to allow patent falsehoods to emerge from their mouths such as our military is fully and well equipped.
Anybody who has the smallest modicum of understanding of military matters can at a glance see that the British military is woefully inadequate for the taskings that our worthless politicians demand of it.
In my view various British politicians since the end of the second world war and the majority post the end of the cold war are guilty of treason in respect of the armed forces.
Posts: 585
By: waco - 11th August 2015 at 15:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yep....hats off to the Mogster...
Wish they had saved a Flower Class Corvette in the UK.
They Canadians saved one....she is in Halifax I think, HMCS Sackville.
My Dad served on a couple...he joined up in 42.
We took him to Chatham recently, to the historic dockyard. He was based there.I don't think he was too keen on the idea at first but I
think he really enjoyed it in the end.
The whole family had a great day out ! I'd recommend it to anyone !
Posts: 197
By: Mike meteor - 11th August 2015 at 16:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Snafu,
Agree with you there.
If our intention is to have a Coastal Defence force, then fine and dandy - let's get ourselves a clutch of Fast Patrol Boats and some effective maritime patrol aircraft, (and not mention the most ludicrous of recent decisions to axe Nimrod without adequate replacement), and call it quits. But if, as British governments are wont to do, we wish to project foreign policy using our military forces as a strong arm, then for goodness sake, we HAVE to resource them properly.
At the risk of being censured for swearing, even Mrs Thatcher (!) came perilously close to messing up. If the Args had invaded the Falklands a few months later, as they intended, we would have been up a very dodgy creek; no aircraft carriers, no assault ships, fewer surface vessels.
Interesting, isn't it, to note how the current bunch of halfwitted hypocrites......oops, the Government, have forgotten all the lessons learned in 1982.....and 1956......and 1939 - 45, and permitted the Navy and the Air Force, to become the travesty of their former selves we now see?
Sorry....rant over!
Posts: 4,996
By: AlanR - 11th August 2015 at 17:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A chap I used to know in Southend, (now sadly deceased) served on a Flower Class Corvette during WWII.
I believe he was a marine. He had some stories to tell.
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 11th August 2015 at 17:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Echoing the theme of inferior equipment and insufficient numbers, I'm reading Dimbleby's account of the North African campaign. Apart from extremely dodgy leadership at the top, the British struggled for lack of a decent tank, self propelled anti tank artillery and most crucially, an infantry portable anti tank weapon.
The introduction of the American Grant tank helped and later still the Sherman but, it had its deficiencies. Some years later when I joined up we had a rather excellent portable anti tank weapon based on, I think, the American bazooka. We knew it as the 3.5 inch rocket launcher, and what a nice piece of kit. Very accurate.
Posts: 197
By: Mike meteor - 11th August 2015 at 17:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My grandfather was a Royal Marine and for many years all I knew was that he had been aboard HMS Warspite. Then one day he saw me building the old Airfix kit of same. He went upstairs and brought down a little tin box. And I was transfixed. Photos, medals, the odd paper. Turned out he was in several ships, was aboard Warspite when she was hit by a glider bomb and very badly damaged in 1943. Spent time in the States while she was being repaired. Earlier, he had been in the cruiser Southampton at the time of the Spanish Civil War, during which time the British ships worked in conjunction with several foreign vessels in an International Squadron. Some of them were German. Three years later we were at war.
He never spoke of it again and died not too long afterwards, but, as a youth of about fourteen, I had had an insight into something quite extraordinary to me. Never did find out what happened to his 'ditty box', but oh, the lost history that generation could have told!
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 12th August 2015 at 00:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I suppose I should have specified warships preserved in the United Kingdom; the Australians and Canadians put us to shame with some of the ships they have managed to preserve.
HMS Belfast is not a battleship, she is a cruiser. The other major ships and submarine that you mention, although it is good that they have made it into preservation, are not preserved in their wartime configuration.
We have the money, over £50billion of government money to lavish on sport, media and the arts in 2014, but you are absolutely correct when you say we, or rather the government, lacks the enthusiasm...
...look at the sorry history of the preservation of HMS Cavalier, or the failure by the government to find a measly million pounds to bring HMS Whimbrel back from Egypt, or the failure of a Conservative government (who owe more than most to the sacrifices of the Royal Navy) to save Falklands veteran HMS Plymouth from the breakers-yard in 2014 (or any government to save any surface warship from the Falklands for that matter)...
...still, money can always be found to save another old master 'for the nation'!
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 12th August 2015 at 09:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OFF TOPIC WARNING
Can I just say what a refreshing change this thread has made from the usual content of GD.
Moggy :D
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 12th August 2015 at 10:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not only that but for those of us navally illiterate it has been extremely informative. Thank you gentlemen.