BREXIT - Merged Thread.

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Member for

13 years 5 months

Posts: 3,381

Removing the convenient 'a bigger parliament made me do it' excuse might actually force some accountability

Indeed; I see the prospect of the UK leaving the EU as a losing proposition for both parties, but there are upsides.

Firstly, it seems clear that the English people won't throw off their shackles and awake to the crimes being perpetrated against them by eminently domestic forces (namely the Tories and the monied interests they represent) until they have nobody else to blame for their woes. In the meantime, the EU is just too good a punching bag.

And secondly, by dealing a considerable blow to an already rickety and deeply flawed insitution, namely the EU, it is at least one more step along the path - if not forwards along the path -- to a truly just transnational institution, i.e. one that embodies radical democratic principles and doesn't eat its own as happened with Greece. If the EU has to collapse and a lot of water pass under the bridge before that just institution can come to pass, so be it. I'm more of a reform-mined, work-within-the-system type myself, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Member for

12 years 11 months

Posts: 6,535

What 'shackles' and 'woes' would they be - exactly ?

Member for

14 years

Posts: 4,996

Mine is winging its way !

Just got mine, it will also be on its way back very shortly. With some added weight :)

Member for

12 years 11 months

Posts: 6,535

Just received an e-mail from the Petitions somebody or other, which says that as a consequence of the number of signatures to a protest about the Govt's EU Referendum propaganda leaflet, a debate before Parliament will be held on the 9th May, next.

Better late than never.

Member for

14 years

Posts: 4,996

Not to mention the Dutch and Czecs.

Member for

14 years 5 months

Posts: 3,447

JG - " Trekkie,

Very obviously the product of State school 'education' !"

As was I. What exactly was your point? By the way, one doesn't leave a space before punctuation. Additionally, 'state' in the context of 'state school' does not require a capital.

Member for

19 years 5 months

Posts: 9,821

My prediction...for what it's worth...not much:

No one is going to exit anything.
People today are too wrapped up in security (the non-military type) ... and for people born into the modern world of social welfare (what some might call the "nanny state" and a "health & safety above all else" mindset), that means more government.
The more layers of bureaucracy, the more regulations, the more secure they feel. Most won't notice any loss of freedoms or sovereignty...if they do they'll gladly exchange that for a cheque every month.

People may complain a lot, talk a good game on the internet or at the pub, but at the end of the day few will be brave enough to vote against the status quo.

Member for

12 years 11 months

Posts: 6,535

I have a sinking feeling where I shouldn't have a sinking feeling that you're probably right, characterised by everyone's fall back expression such as:

"Well, I coulldn't get no 'elp"

Member for

17 years 5 months

Posts: 8,980

GOOD NEWS..... Cameron is to be updated on the staying in debate, as I posted his pamphlet back to him today, though he may have to stump up the postage, as I didn't think it was worthy of a stamp!

Member for

11 years 5 months

Posts: 11,141

Pity you didn't read Alan's helpful post earlier pointing out it won't cost Cameron a cent but will cost the taxpayer £2!!:( If you had used the freepost address he provided then the Conservative party will pay.

Member for

14 years

Posts: 4,996

Just to correct an earlier statement. The leaflet was actually printed by a uk company.
Owned by a German organization .

Member for

12 years 11 months

Posts: 6,535

Pity you didn't read Alan's helpful post earlier pointing out it won't cost Cameron a cent but will cost the taxpayer £2!!:( If you had used the freepost address he provided then the Conservative party will pay.

Where exactly they finish up isn't the point. The point is that these imaginative pamphlets are returned in huge numbers !

Member for

11 years 5 months

Posts: 11,141

You miss the point! It matters greatly if the taxpayer has to pay the postage on the returned leaflets, as Alan helpfully explained.

Member for

12 years 11 months

Posts: 6,535

Yes it does. You are correct, it matters much if the taxpayer has to pay but, in the scheme of things it is even more important to return these 'Komic Kuts' in vast numbers so that Oily Dave begins to understand that he has a battle on his hands.

That is the truly important bit - think about it.

Member for

11 years 5 months

Posts: 11,141

I have thought about it and determined that obliging the Conservative party to fund the postage is infinitely preferable to the taxpayer being obliged to add to the £9 million plus already spent. If only 1% of the leaflets are sent to Downing Street that would be an additional cost of more than half a million pounds. 5% would be nearly £3 million.

To use a phrase in common currency - it's a no brainer!

Member for

12 years 11 months

Posts: 6,535

Yes Charlie,

You are absolutely correct in all respects but, your comment indicates that you are thinking only of the monetary aspect which, while important, isn't the most important. The chance exists - and, it is only a chance, to demonstrate to Oily Dave that there are large numbers of the electorate who see thru' his lies, distortions and evasions.

The monies that you correctly mention, are so insignificant when set beside this unique chance to make a political point. I would have expected you with your political acuity to have latched onto this sooner rather than sooner !

Member for

11 years 5 months

Posts: 11,141

Your point would be well made but for the fact that you presume Oily Dave will not be made aware of the avalanche of paperwork descending on his loyal disciples at his HQ every morning. I suspect even their patience and loyalty will be severely tested!! In fact the effect will be a great deal better than the paperwork arriving at Downing Street which will be whisked away unseen by all but the highly paid minions, whose role is to protect him from such sordid detail.

So, although I plead little or no political acuity, I can only see Alan's suggestion as both fiscally prudent and politically sophisticated.

Member for

12 years 11 months

Posts: 6,535

No, I made no such presumption. Alan's suggestion was all as you have written. I took issue with your emphasis on the costs attached to the exercise - whichever method of delivery one chose, rather than the stunning effects of an avalanche of unwanted Govt. propaganda floating back thru the Govt's letterbox, unloved and rejected.

It was/is the prospective numbers attached to that rejection which caused me to salivate and question whether your interest should have been directed to anticipate convoys of Royal Mail trucks queueing down Whitehall or the other address rather than the cost of rejection.

In my opinion, the political fallout exceeded the cost to the taxpayer by some considerable but unmeasurable margin.