By: TonyT
- 28th June 2017 at 02:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As I don't think he will go the distance, perhaps a putting iron would be better.
I just think as with Brown when he lost power and was wittering on about forming a coalition even though they had lost the election, Corbynn and co are in denial.
By: Bruce
- 28th June 2017 at 10:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that's right - but there is a lot of uncertainty around at the moment, which I bet is killing the high street. There are going to be a lot of big knocks to hit confidence over the next few months - many of them of the Tories own making. I think the govt will last the two years, but after that, the bets are off. If the Tories stand a chance of recovering to even hang on to their current position, they are going to have to make some big concessions. I still don't rule out the formation of a new centre party - which could include soft Tory and Labour support. The Lib Dems are dead in the water, and with Vince Cable the only one standing for the leadership, they aint going to improve any time soon.
By: TonyT
- 28th June 2017 at 12:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I see Corbyn's only amendment to the Queens Speech is to go after the pay cap on Nurses, Firemen and Police... Call me cynical, but that to feels like a political manoeuvre as opposed to anything else, he knows public opinion is with them over their selfless acts during the tragedies of late and he is betting on a lack MPs' publicly voting against it? so he can then use it as a stick to beat over the conservatives head saying they haven't the backing of the country etc..... increasing wages with a decreasing budget could actually have the opposite effect and a resulting cut in numbers.
Unfortunately it is Corbyn and Co's egos getting in the way of letting the Government actually do what the Country voted for and then again returned them to power, all be it with a reduced powerbase. and that is to get the best deal for the UK in leaving Europe.
People witter on about hard Brexit and what a hard Brexit is... well we voted on that, we wanted immigration under our control and control of our market destiny and our own laws, and that is a hard Brexit, because with the first two still in play, Immigration is tied to the free market zone. so you are still part of the EU and have abide by the laws it entails, indeed even when we come out we will still have to abide by a lot of them if we wish to continue to sell into the EU as the EU has set standards for goods and services, the rules pertaining to those will still need to be met.
By: Beermat
- 28th June 2017 at 12:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
People said that about Labour and Corbyn, though. I agree Cable will have a tougher job - it's taken this long to explain to a de-politicised generation what Labour stand for - with centuries of ideological and socio-economic thought behind it. The Liberals will have a yet steeper hill to climb.
I don't think we will see a new centre party. I do think Corbyn will retire in two years, and a young left-leaning leader with no historical associations (either to 70's radicalism or 90's fake-labour) will stand effectively against the Conservatives. This will have been made possible by the 'normalisation' of a left-thinking opposition, something the public haven't really had for a long time, that is happening right now.
By: Bruce
- 28th June 2017 at 12:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Right again Tony - they are all playing power games right now. Corbyn is working at securing his base in case of another election. He could have tabled a number of smaller amendments that might have stuck, but went with this one - which also calls for increased investment in the emergency services.
By: Agent K
- 28th June 2017 at 12:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think you'll find (re BREXIT) people simply voted to stay in, or leave. Those were (foolishly) the only options available, there was no choice on the process or form it would take (demonstrating an inconceivable amateurishness and niaivety by all involved).
We have now moved on and what happens next affects ALL of the electorate and indeed population all of whom are are entitled to their own views and wishes and needs; and the hope that the politicians will reflect them. You can't say that it needs to follow purely the wishes of those who voted leave (which will have been a mixture of hard and soft and those that didn't understand).
By: TonyT
- 28th June 2017 at 13:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I for one didn't vote on immigration from the EU, I voted on getting the UK's power of self determination back, with a worry we would get immigration from the none EU foisted upon us and the realisation that further down the line when those seeking asylum are processed in other countries and become EU citizens, then they could freely move here, and I worried about the security implications in all of that, but I realised we need immigration one way or the other.
As for the Election, I still think the country is behind the Conservatives and their plans for Brexit, let's face it, the Election was a disaster and even though Labour opened up the borrowed sweetie jar to the Country and promised everyone a share of the sweeties, the old, the young, the immigrants, the unemployed, in fact everyone.. they still couldn't win.
The Conservatives on the other hand went asset stripping from their core electorate, and for once was probably a realistic manifesto on what the Country actually really needed, though a totally stupid thing to put forward.... whoever thought that was a good idea should be sentenced to serve Solitary plus one in a room with Nicola Sturgeon for 10 years. And still Labour couldn't win.
End of the day the Conservatives took a major hit through their own policies while Labour probably hoovered up the gullible who were happy to eat from the hand without realising that it would cost them in the long run, plus a fair share of Brexit waivers that have realised that it will happen and having previously been on the fence and voted yes, have got down to have some "free" sweeties on offer. And still they Didn't win.
By: Creaking Door
- 28th June 2017 at 13:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There were no 'options' for BREXIT because it was assumed the result would be be 'remain'.
Personally, I can't see Jeremy Corbyn retiring any time soon. Right now he has the best job in the world; all he has to do is make the government look stupid (which shouldn't be too difficult!) and bask in the adulation of his, young and growing (although not necessarily growing-up), fanbase.
By the way, Jeremy Corbyn called for an end to the cap on all public-sector employee pay-rises, it was just a bit of post-electioneering that he chose to highlight the emergency-services.
By: Agent K
- 28th June 2017 at 14:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, interesting views from you both and good sense in both of what you say. I think you highlight a problem with all parties and parliament as it stands, that of short termism, with a view of gaining vote rather than what is good for the country. See LHR 3rd runway for example, desperately needed now, let alone 10 years time when it would be ready of they started now, but that is in another, a future, parliaments sitting and thus we've seen it halted after the last election, reviewed and delayed again in this parliament, and yet we're no further forward.
By: TonyT
- 28th June 2017 at 14:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It s the same with everything, the rail network needs a massive investment and update to make it fit for purpose, as does the road network, but no Government is going to commit to a multi-multi billion pound spend over the next 20-50 years etc as it would be political suicide and the chances are the next lot will cancel it, so they do a multi million patch job, which does not address the root problem of failing infrastructure, it simply at best patches the worst parts, you then get choke points between new and old infrastructure. The same goes for all Government departments.
Take water, I cannot believe in the 21st century that each region isn't interlinked to allow water in droughts to flow across the country between areas of plenty and those of shortage.
Power, another classic, we now have the possibility of shortages in generation.. why, because the government didn't force companies to convert usable stations with life left in them over to cleaner gas... instead they allowed their demolition, creating a vacuum in the generation capacity.
Gas, The Uk has one of the lowest storage capacities of Europe, France buys our gas in Summer, stores it and then sells it back to us in Winter at a higher rate, , and now it is getting worse.
By: John Green
- 30th June 2017 at 13:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
On Wed. this week, I had to go to Manchester on business. Its been a while since I flogged up and down GB's motorway network. My God, what a shock. A pardonable exaggeration in the circumstances but, the M6 seemed to be one continuous ribbon of roadworks with very little repair activity going on.
The picture presented was one of Third world dereliction. The dirt road from Kano to Maiduguri in northern Nigeria - as was - they've probably had time to metal it by now, was in vastly superior condition. The motorway network in the Midlands appears to be supremely important because it is so busy yet, what a mess !
I'm aware that 'roadworks on the M6' have become a kind of music hall joke, because they never seem to end. Why do they take so long ? There seems to be more than a hint of some kind of self fulfilling prophecy at play. Yes, these works take a long time to complete because they are expected to take a long time - so, wish fulfilment. I cannot imagine the Yanks would countenance such an incompetent operation.
Tony, about 20 years ago I drew up the outline of a country wide, national distribution scheme for water distribution flowing from areas of plenty to areas of drought. The scheme employed existing man made and natural watercourses and with the application of well sited pumping stations presented an extremely cost effective National Water Grid. The then current drought ended and with it Govt. interest.
By: Agent K
- 30th June 2017 at 15:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
JG, it's atrocious. In my 30+ years of commuting to LHR and back along a selection of roads including the M1/A1/M25 and M4 I have had to suffer road works 75% of that time, seriously. It has take between 3 to 4 years to create a new junction on the M1, similar to widen it, similar to widen the M25 etc.
I have encountered road works whilst driving in the States a lot and some of those have taken a long, but perhaps not as long time. When I was in the M/E (UAE/DXB) I saw a new road spring up literally overnight.
By: Beermat
- 30th June 2017 at 17:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
" interesting views from you both and good sense in both of what you say"
Well, it's a notch above spotting creases in a chap's shirt (at Glastonbury!) as political discourse.
I also have to make use of our motorway network on a frequent basis and it's shaming. God knows what a visitor from overseas makes of it. Everything looks shabby and frankly a little bit third world - certainly well below the standard of any other European nation and in places - especially in terms of the miles of coned-off sections with no work going on - very similar to how I remember the more remote highways of Colombia and Ecuador. I wonder sometimes whether one of the reasons we wish to shy away from Europe is to prevent further comparison of such things - this, the railways, water and utilities, social housing, the list goes on.
Sadly, John, letters of complaint won't get read. The only thing that would work would be a Government who gave a toss in the first place.
By: John Green
- 30th June 2017 at 18:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You maybe right. It depends on numbers. If we were to complain in sufficient numbers I'm sure notice would be taken perhaps - just perhaps action would follow. I'll give it a go.
By: Beermat
- 10th July 2017 at 09:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
..and in other news Mrs. May has put on a false beard and a Che Guevara beret.
In a statement from Downing Street she said "For each according to their greed and from each according to their ability to prop up a Government. Free Nelson Mandela with every vote! That's right isn't it, that's what the kids are saying? Do you think this will work.. Oh, is this still on?"
By: TonyT
- 10th July 2017 at 13:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Always amazes me when you drive through roadworks and no one about, surely a 24 hour construction is the way to go, especially as the evening is the quiet time..
I also thing when they put in new bridges they should throw in an extra span to bulletproof them against future road widening.
Posts: 8,983
By: TonyT - 27th June 2017 at 12:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If he wants to straighten out the Country, I suggest he starts with an iron ;)
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 27th June 2017 at 17:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Five or a nine ?
Posts: 8,983
By: TonyT - 28th June 2017 at 02:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As I don't think he will go the distance, perhaps a putting iron would be better.
I just think as with Brown when he lost power and was wittering on about forming a coalition even though they had lost the election, Corbynn and co are in denial.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 28th June 2017 at 10:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that's right - but there is a lot of uncertainty around at the moment, which I bet is killing the high street. There are going to be a lot of big knocks to hit confidence over the next few months - many of them of the Tories own making. I think the govt will last the two years, but after that, the bets are off. If the Tories stand a chance of recovering to even hang on to their current position, they are going to have to make some big concessions. I still don't rule out the formation of a new centre party - which could include soft Tory and Labour support. The Lib Dems are dead in the water, and with Vince Cable the only one standing for the leadership, they aint going to improve any time soon.
Posts: 8,983
By: TonyT - 28th June 2017 at 12:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I see Corbyn's only amendment to the Queens Speech is to go after the pay cap on Nurses, Firemen and Police... Call me cynical, but that to feels like a political manoeuvre as opposed to anything else, he knows public opinion is with them over their selfless acts during the tragedies of late and he is betting on a lack MPs' publicly voting against it? so he can then use it as a stick to beat over the conservatives head saying they haven't the backing of the country etc..... increasing wages with a decreasing budget could actually have the opposite effect and a resulting cut in numbers.
Unfortunately it is Corbyn and Co's egos getting in the way of letting the Government actually do what the Country voted for and then again returned them to power, all be it with a reduced powerbase. and that is to get the best deal for the UK in leaving Europe.
People witter on about hard Brexit and what a hard Brexit is... well we voted on that, we wanted immigration under our control and control of our market destiny and our own laws, and that is a hard Brexit, because with the first two still in play, Immigration is tied to the free market zone. so you are still part of the EU and have abide by the laws it entails, indeed even when we come out we will still have to abide by a lot of them if we wish to continue to sell into the EU as the EU has set standards for goods and services, the rules pertaining to those will still need to be met.
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 28th June 2017 at 12:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
People said that about Labour and Corbyn, though. I agree Cable will have a tougher job - it's taken this long to explain to a de-politicised generation what Labour stand for - with centuries of ideological and socio-economic thought behind it. The Liberals will have a yet steeper hill to climb.
I don't think we will see a new centre party. I do think Corbyn will retire in two years, and a young left-leaning leader with no historical associations (either to 70's radicalism or 90's fake-labour) will stand effectively against the Conservatives. This will have been made possible by the 'normalisation' of a left-thinking opposition, something the public haven't really had for a long time, that is happening right now.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 28th June 2017 at 12:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Right again Tony - they are all playing power games right now. Corbyn is working at securing his base in case of another election. He could have tabled a number of smaller amendments that might have stuck, but went with this one - which also calls for increased investment in the emergency services.
Posts: 963
By: Agent K - 28th June 2017 at 12:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think you'll find (re BREXIT) people simply voted to stay in, or leave. Those were (foolishly) the only options available, there was no choice on the process or form it would take (demonstrating an inconceivable amateurishness and niaivety by all involved).
We have now moved on and what happens next affects ALL of the electorate and indeed population all of whom are are entitled to their own views and wishes and needs; and the hope that the politicians will reflect them. You can't say that it needs to follow purely the wishes of those who voted leave (which will have been a mixture of hard and soft and those that didn't understand).
Posts: 8,983
By: TonyT - 28th June 2017 at 13:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I for one didn't vote on immigration from the EU, I voted on getting the UK's power of self determination back, with a worry we would get immigration from the none EU foisted upon us and the realisation that further down the line when those seeking asylum are processed in other countries and become EU citizens, then they could freely move here, and I worried about the security implications in all of that, but I realised we need immigration one way or the other.
As for the Election, I still think the country is behind the Conservatives and their plans for Brexit, let's face it, the Election was a disaster and even though Labour opened up the borrowed sweetie jar to the Country and promised everyone a share of the sweeties, the old, the young, the immigrants, the unemployed, in fact everyone.. they still couldn't win.
The Conservatives on the other hand went asset stripping from their core electorate, and for once was probably a realistic manifesto on what the Country actually really needed, though a totally stupid thing to put forward.... whoever thought that was a good idea should be sentenced to serve Solitary plus one in a room with Nicola Sturgeon for 10 years. And still Labour couldn't win.
End of the day the Conservatives took a major hit through their own policies while Labour probably hoovered up the gullible who were happy to eat from the hand without realising that it would cost them in the long run, plus a fair share of Brexit waivers that have realised that it will happen and having previously been on the fence and voted yes, have got down to have some "free" sweeties on offer. And still they Didn't win.
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 28th June 2017 at 13:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There were no 'options' for BREXIT because it was assumed the result would be be 'remain'.
Personally, I can't see Jeremy Corbyn retiring any time soon. Right now he has the best job in the world; all he has to do is make the government look stupid (which shouldn't be too difficult!) and bask in the adulation of his, young and growing (although not necessarily growing-up), fanbase.
By the way, Jeremy Corbyn called for an end to the cap on all public-sector employee pay-rises, it was just a bit of post-electioneering that he chose to highlight the emergency-services.
Posts: 963
By: Agent K - 28th June 2017 at 14:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, interesting views from you both and good sense in both of what you say. I think you highlight a problem with all parties and parliament as it stands, that of short termism, with a view of gaining vote rather than what is good for the country. See LHR 3rd runway for example, desperately needed now, let alone 10 years time when it would be ready of they started now, but that is in another, a future, parliaments sitting and thus we've seen it halted after the last election, reviewed and delayed again in this parliament, and yet we're no further forward.
Posts: 8,983
By: TonyT - 28th June 2017 at 14:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It s the same with everything, the rail network needs a massive investment and update to make it fit for purpose, as does the road network, but no Government is going to commit to a multi-multi billion pound spend over the next 20-50 years etc as it would be political suicide and the chances are the next lot will cancel it, so they do a multi million patch job, which does not address the root problem of failing infrastructure, it simply at best patches the worst parts, you then get choke points between new and old infrastructure. The same goes for all Government departments.
Take water, I cannot believe in the 21st century that each region isn't interlinked to allow water in droughts to flow across the country between areas of plenty and those of shortage.
Power, another classic, we now have the possibility of shortages in generation.. why, because the government didn't force companies to convert usable stations with life left in them over to cleaner gas... instead they allowed their demolition, creating a vacuum in the generation capacity.
Gas, The Uk has one of the lowest storage capacities of Europe, France buys our gas in Summer, stores it and then sells it back to us in Winter at a higher rate, , and now it is getting worse.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/20/uk-gas-storage-prices-rough-british-gas-centrica
and then there was this to cut pollution
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/04/uks-retreat-from-carbon-storage-a-mistake-for-crisis-hit-north-s/
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 30th June 2017 at 13:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
On Wed. this week, I had to go to Manchester on business. Its been a while since I flogged up and down GB's motorway network. My God, what a shock. A pardonable exaggeration in the circumstances but, the M6 seemed to be one continuous ribbon of roadworks with very little repair activity going on.
The picture presented was one of Third world dereliction. The dirt road from Kano to Maiduguri in northern Nigeria - as was - they've probably had time to metal it by now, was in vastly superior condition. The motorway network in the Midlands appears to be supremely important because it is so busy yet, what a mess !
I'm aware that 'roadworks on the M6' have become a kind of music hall joke, because they never seem to end. Why do they take so long ? There seems to be more than a hint of some kind of self fulfilling prophecy at play. Yes, these works take a long time to complete because they are expected to take a long time - so, wish fulfilment. I cannot imagine the Yanks would countenance such an incompetent operation.
Tony, about 20 years ago I drew up the outline of a country wide, national distribution scheme for water distribution flowing from areas of plenty to areas of drought. The scheme employed existing man made and natural watercourses and with the application of well sited pumping stations presented an extremely cost effective National Water Grid. The then current drought ended and with it Govt. interest.
Posts: 963
By: Agent K - 30th June 2017 at 15:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
JG, it's atrocious. In my 30+ years of commuting to LHR and back along a selection of roads including the M1/A1/M25 and M4 I have had to suffer road works 75% of that time, seriously. It has take between 3 to 4 years to create a new junction on the M1, similar to widen it, similar to widen the M25 etc.
I have encountered road works whilst driving in the States a lot and some of those have taken a long, but perhaps not as long time. When I was in the M/E (UAE/DXB) I saw a new road spring up literally overnight.
Where there is a will.......
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 30th June 2017 at 16:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that the least we should do is to annoy Chris Grayling the Transport Secretary by writing him frequent letter of complaint copied to the PM.
If enough users do this then we might get some effective action.
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 30th June 2017 at 17:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
" interesting views from you both and good sense in both of what you say"
Well, it's a notch above spotting creases in a chap's shirt (at Glastonbury!) as political discourse.
I also have to make use of our motorway network on a frequent basis and it's shaming. God knows what a visitor from overseas makes of it. Everything looks shabby and frankly a little bit third world - certainly well below the standard of any other European nation and in places - especially in terms of the miles of coned-off sections with no work going on - very similar to how I remember the more remote highways of Colombia and Ecuador. I wonder sometimes whether one of the reasons we wish to shy away from Europe is to prevent further comparison of such things - this, the railways, water and utilities, social housing, the list goes on.
Sadly, John, letters of complaint won't get read. The only thing that would work would be a Government who gave a toss in the first place.
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 30th June 2017 at 18:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You maybe right. It depends on numbers. If we were to complain in sufficient numbers I'm sure notice would be taken perhaps - just perhaps action would follow. I'll give it a go.
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 10th July 2017 at 09:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
..and in other news Mrs. May has put on a false beard and a Che Guevara beret.
In a statement from Downing Street she said "For each according to their greed and from each according to their ability to prop up a Government. Free Nelson Mandela with every vote! That's right isn't it, that's what the kids are saying? Do you think this will work.. Oh, is this still on?"
Posts: 8,983
By: TonyT - 10th July 2017 at 13:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Always amazes me when you drive through roadworks and no one about, surely a 24 hour construction is the way to go, especially as the evening is the quiet time..
I also thing when they put in new bridges they should throw in an extra span to bulletproof them against future road widening.