Confiscated WW2 Aircraft Instruments

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An interesting post here:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=19924

Original post

Member for

18 years 9 months

Posts: 2,766

I am slowly preparing my 2010 exhibition (trailer and Spitfire) and already thinking to remove and maybe scrap 2 instrument panels and several wwII instruments. I cannot afford to be jumped on by an over zealous H&S person when I pitch up at an event throughout the year. Sadly it comes to this as it is only a matter of time when it's 'one of us' in the dock for the same type of offence.

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 635

Due to recent events of the threat of terrorism border customs are a lot more stringent and sophisticated in checking packages now, a lot of this tuff is being detected aand stopped at the borders and confiscated, sign of times I'm afraid. We are not at the stage of the old bill knocking on one's door at the moment. A lot of the remaining aerojumbles are not allowing old instruments to be sold (in theory). It all seems downhill at the moment for instruments and panels.

It will be interesting to have Air Ministry's take on this, generally.

As a matter of interest, I loaned some instruments (actually, not very important or significant to me personally) to an aviation museum some while ago. When I went to collect them at the end of the loan period they were in "quarantine" inside a lead box under HSE instructions. I cannot recall what was there....although it included a P8 compass I think. Never did get them back, but not worth the hassle of even trying to!

Gosh.....had "the Few" gained even the slightest idea of the mortal danger they were in before they even met the enemy then they would have surely baled out of their dangerous cockpits long before the Luftwaffe were even in sight!!

Member for

16 years 7 months

Posts: 10,647

It would also be good to have a general guide as to which instruments contain what substances.

Member for

15 years 10 months

Posts: 88

This is not only alarming news for WW2 aircraft instrument collectors. Also many post war jets used luminous instruments. For example the F-104 Starfighter has a lot of luminous instruments in the cockpit.

Member for

16 years 2 months

Posts: 1,911

I'm not au fait with the situation in The Netherlands so can only really speculate.

The fact that it was the police who knocked on the poor man's door, suggests to me that the action was more to do with anti-terrorism (as Runway06 has already mentioned) than public health concerns.

There has long been a theory that Johnny Terrorist might go round all the aerojumbles, buying up enough radium painted dials to make a dirty bomb - nothing that would cause massive death or destruction, but just enough to scatter radio-active material over a wide area, resulting in major disruption and a prolonged clean up (imagine something like this happening at Heathrow, for example).

That fear certainly seems to be behind some of the actions I've heard about in the U.K., but how real the threat is I wouldn't like to say (er, sub-zero?).

I hope common sense prevails and he gets his (no doubt very valuable) collection back, albeit with lots of advice on how to store it safely.

Meanwhile I shall continue to take my geiger counter to the aerojumbles and Cockpitfest and annoy you all by pointing out how hot some of your bits and pieces are!

Member for

19 years 6 months

Posts: 532

How many people have died, are forecast to die, been mamed or had their lives shortened by exposure to these instruments?

I think I am right in saying that the USAF have removed certain instruments from "loan" airframes in the UK and I think the RAFM have done likewise....although some of our museum friends could doubtless confirm?

Member for

20 years 6 months

Posts: 8,195

At the RAF Museum, while researching our book, we were allowed 15 minutes inside the (instrument-less) Supermarine Stranraer and not allowed into the Seagull V (Walrus) at all, although we were able to shoot through the cockpit window from a provided ladder. That'd be about 2000. The issue was specifically stated to be radioactive instruments.

The Canadian Aviation Museum showed me a quarantine area for their 'hot' instruments on a visit in about 2002.

Interesting case, and I don't think our Dutch friend is going to have a good time.

"My second concern is that I am completely broke, for years I have spent every euro I had for this fascinating hobby."
Ooops. Hobbies should remain under your control, not vice versa.

Regards,

Member for

18 years 9 months

Posts: 2,766

Meanwhile I shall continue to take my geiger counter to the aerojumbles and Cockpitfest and annoy you all by pointing out how hot some of your bits and pieces are!

We need to know what is and what isn't acceptable, it appears to be a secret to the knowledgeable on this forum as this question has been asked on other threads and avoided.

Member for

18 years 3 months

Posts: 1,216

Luminous instrument faces are considered a hazard in aircraft in museums, what is the situation regarding those fitted to airworthy aircraft and held as spares. Can the overhaul agents handle them safely during the overhaul process.

Richard

Member for

16 years 2 months

Posts: 1,911

We need to know what is and what isn't acceptable, it appears to be a secret to the knowledgeable on this forum as this question has been asked on other threads and avoided.

I work on the basis that any amount of radiation, over and above the normal background level, as detected by my Über-cheap, "Chernobyl-Special" geiger counter is unlikely to be acceptable in this H&S dominated world, and I act accordingly.

I have no specialist training. I have never worked in the industry. I am simply an enthusiast like many other folks on this forum.

I have, however, taken the time to study the subject and have built up a fairly extensive knowledge through research. I reckon I can tell most "hot" instruments just by studying them: the geiger counter is there simply to demonstrate this to others less knowledgable.

Why haven't you done the same?

Member for

18 years 10 months

Posts: 4,796

A company here in California was effectively put out of business when the feds seized all his instruments..

Member for

19 years 11 months

Posts: 1,988

not only planes

The guages on WWII vehicles were also luminous. You can see that a radioactive warning sticker has been attached to the speedometer in the jeeps in the Land Warfare hall at Duxford

Member for

18 years 2 months

Posts: 7,742

Can I remind people that in part we’ve been ‘here’ before on this topic:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97355&highlight=health

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=96695&highlight=health&page=2

As has been said before the legislation isn’t going to get easier or go away.

I understand that one of the previous anomalies, the watch repair sector is also now coming under the legislation.

IMHO if the previously mentioned events; that we all participate in are to continue, things will undoubtedly have to change.

At the RAF Museum, while researching our book, we were allowed 15 minutes inside the (instrument-less) Supermarine Stranraer and not allowed into the Seagull V (Walrus) at all, although we were able to shoot through the cockpit window from a provided ladder. That'd be about 2000. The issue was specifically stated to be radioactive instruments.

The Canadian Aviation Museum showed me a quarantine area for their 'hot' instruments on a visit in about 2002.

Interesting case, and I don't think our Dutch friend is going to have a good time.

"My second concern is that I am completely broke, for years I have spent every euro I had for this fascinating hobby."
Ooops. Hobbies should remain under your control, not vice versa.

Regards,

Ah! So if you were allowed to shoot through the perspex then obviously perspex is the new international standard for radiological protection? :D
Forget lead! Next time I go for an X-Ray I shall demand perspex underpants.

Member for

18 years 2 months

Posts: 7,742

Perspex can be an acceptable barrier – it all depends on the type of radiation. For some sources a sheet of paper would work!!

People should also remember that it isn’t just instruments that are an issue: escape compasses, certain turbine blades, some escape route & fire extinguisher markers etc.

Member for

16 years 11 months

Posts: 1,951

I think it worth mentioning that we have been temporarily excluded from our workshop at wyton as they found some additional items above and beyond what was on our Radhaz register during an external audit. It would appear that the majority of the extra stuff is found in some crash relics which had been missed by the authorities when they did their initial survey.

We are working together with the MOD on assessing this and to be honest they seem fairly relaxed about it, they just want to know what's there and how it is to be dealt with. The instruments do not seem to be a major concern to them provided they are not broken. I would refer you to my post on the thread mentioned above as it gives the MOD position wrt radiation hazards in Museums hosted on their units. Like anything, provided you treat these with respect they can be handled safely, but I wouldn't be surprised if there will be major changes over the coming years

John

Member for

16 years 5 months

Posts: 5,999

Next time I go for an X-Ray I shall demand perspex underpants.

Is that opposed to the usual rubber ones.? :D:p

Is that opposed to the usual rubber ones.? :D:p

Who told you what I wear?