Battle of Britain BBC2 last night

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16 years 7 months

Posts: 10,647

I can't find any existing threads on this, forgive me or merge them if there are any.

I thought this programme was fantastic with all points being very well made and lay-man presented by historian James Holland. It was great to see interviews with both RAF and Luftwaffe pilots along with some really carefully choosen period air to air footage.
It was great to see the valuable work of the dispersed aircraft factories, ASUs, MUs & CWPs being acknowleged (not by name unfortunately) and along with the sector station/radar chain really shows how the pre-war expansion period build up of the RAF did pay dividends, especially in regard of planning and organisation.
Great to see Bomber Command getting their rightful mention for their valuable contribution in this period aswel.

Is it me or was it conicidence that two completey different presenters on two different programmes were driving what appeared to be the same Citroen Traction Avant?!

Original post

Unless James has one too, I think you will find it belongs to Howard Tuck. I drove a good few miles around Hampshire in it and was fascinated to discover it has its own WW2 history; used by the Resistance, confiscated by the Germans and then returned to its original owner post-war.

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17 years 10 months

Posts: 525

Full marks to James Holland and BBC 2 for probably the best and most accurate assessment of the air battles of 1940.
It was very pleasing to hear genuine and unbiased comment, plus the accuracy of detail of the strategy of both sides, together with informed opinion on opposing aircraft performances.
The real history and usage of radar on both sides was new to me, and the detail of the Kriegsmarine S boats in concurrance with the air battle was something not widely known.
In all, the program offered one of the best insights to the overall picture of the B of B, without all the usual celebraties and cliches which have almost been overkill during the past few weeks.

The use of E-Boats (or S-Boats!) was quite significant in the battle and they played quite a role in attacks against Channel Convoys - including "Peewit" of course. On that occasion the night time attack was so sudden and so loud that the merchant vessels were convinced they were being attacked by low flying aircraft. Three coasters went to the bottom in moments.

It is easy to nit pick, and it is inevitable that all programmes of this genre will have the odd factual error creep in. It is not a critcism of the programme, per se, but I would take issue with James' assertion that all incoming German raids were located on RDF and intercepted. At least, I think that was the gist of what he said?

Au contraire. For example, on 4 July Portland was hammered by Ju 87s along with a channel convoy and 160 odd crew on HMS Foylebank were killed and channel ships sunk. RAF Fighter Command did not get off the ground. Similarly, I am just writing about the Detling attack by Ju87s on 13 August when there was huge loss of life on the ground. Again, it was a raid that was not intercepted.

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16 years 7 months

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"without all the usual celebraties and cliches which have almost been overkill during the past few weeks."

I have mixed thoughts on this, I struggle to watch them (the Ewan Mcgreggor for example I found to be very light weight and I lasted 15 mins) BUT, I think it is aimed at a different audience and if it brings awareness and interest through that approach then that can't be a bad thing. I recorded the James Holland effort which is planned for tonights entertainment.

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14 years 5 months

Posts: 4,956

xtangomike has summarised it extremely well. I have little to add other than that I enjoyed it immensely, so much so, that I will watch it again tonight on iPlayer. Having read James Holland and seen him from time to time, he is an able, well informed and researched presenter with, seemingly, no axe to grind, simply to present as rounded an analysis as possible of the events of Summer/Autumn 1940.

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21 years

Posts: 2,108

It is not a critcism of the programme, per se, but I would take issue with James' assertion that all incoming German raids were located on RDF and intercepted. At least, I think that was the gist of what he said?

Au contraire. For example, on 4 July Portland was hammered by Ju 87s along with a channel convoy and 160 odd crew on HMS Foylebank were killed and channel ships sunk. RAF Fighter Command did not get off the ground. Similarly, I am just writing about the Detling attack by Ju87s on 13 August when there was huge loss of life on the ground. Again, it was a raid that was not intercepted.

Not to mention the 9 x Do17's of 9/KG76 that flew at wave top height across the channel for the 18th Aug attack on Kenley.....not picked until they flew past below the level of the Observer Corps post on Beachy Head IIRC!

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14 years 5 months

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Yes it was probably sloppy to have made that blanket statement - "a very high percentage of attacks were located and intercepted" might have been better but that does not significantly alter his thesis.

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18 years 1 month

Posts: 911

Hi;

Was I the only one that felt that Holland exagerated the perfomance differences between the MkI Spit and the 109E - over emphasising the strengths of the 109 and the weaknesses of the Spit?

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

This report seems to paint a different picture. I know that the 109 had some very distinct advantages, but I always thought that the two aircraft were more closely matched than the programme led us to believe.

Nice to see other aspects of the battle get a mention though..

Regards;
Steve

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14 years 5 months

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So far as I recall the key points were made by ex-pilots from both sides and assimilated into James Holland's comments.

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19 years 1 month

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I also think that (generally speaking) the overall capabilities of the 109 tend to be exaggerated a little as compared to the spit,the fuel injection was of course very handy for combat flying.But it was a cramped little aircraft with as many faults as any other combat aircraft of the time.
What disappointed me about the programme was how little they showed of (say) the Hajo Hermann interview,he had been an operational bomber pilot during the Spanish Civil War and his autobio (Eagles Wings) is a very interesting book.

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18 years 5 months

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For me it was a very interesting programme despite the odd mistake. And im glad he pointed out that most ME109s flying today are Buchons and not the real thing.

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16 years 7 months

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Unless James has one too, I think you will find it belongs to Howard Tuck. I drove a good few miles around Hampshire in it and was fascinated to discover it has its own WW2 history; used by the Resistance, confiscated by the Germans and then returned to its original owner post-war.

Oooh - an excuse to post an image of another of my passions, vintage French motor cars. Lovely things, Traction Avants. I've had a soft spot for them since the old British Maigret television series. Round my way they race them. Here's one participating in the 2008 Bressuire Retro GP.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/5017067009_1ed04cc82e_b.jpg

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14 years 5 months

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Me too, AA. In our family they were and still are called Maigret Citroens.:) But the thought of racing them............:D And I presume that means there are still quite a number on the roads. Apologies for the thread drift, there.

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19 years 4 months

Posts: 814

An excellent well balanced programme.
James did a superb job of presenting the events of the Battle without demeaning it in any way.

Incidentally, I'm so glad that the debunkers of the BoB, mainly supporters of the other two services, have stayed in their boxes this anniversary year.

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14 years 5 months

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Are there really BoB deniers - like holocaust deniers? It never really happened......:confused:

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19 years 4 months

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Yes, I recall a story a couple of years back which claimed the Royal Navy actually won the Battle.......although knowing how journo's operate, maybe an experts words were taken out of context.
Douglas Bader's efforts were deconstructed some years back as well.
And I know I harp on about this, but during the early years of the last government, I felt there were frequent attempts to sweep the BoB under the carpet, and downplay it.
I remember an occasion when the late great 32 Sqn pilot Pete Brothers was bemoaning the fact that Blair hadnt bothered to attend the memorial sevice at the Abbey.....he called him a creep.
Couldnt have put it better myself!

That all said, as we are getting towards the end of the anniversary year, I have to say that I have been most impressed with the public of all ages with their enthusiasm for the Battle at events from airshows to flypasts and the memorial day at Capel le Ferne.
The media have done the BoB proud this year both on TV and in the papers.

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18 years 1 month

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I have to agree with that whole heartedly. I've been very impressed by the amount of coverage, and the way in which the media have dealt with the anniversary this year. Top marks from me.

Regards;
Steve

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13 years 7 months

Posts: 146

Are there really BoB deniers - like holocaust deniers? It never really happened......:confused:

I think that quite a lot of Germans would deny it happened...I believe it's viewed as a minor skirmish by many, a prelude to the major events on the Eastern Front.

But then they would, I suppose;)

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18 years 3 months

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Although this was of course about the BoB I think a little more should have been made as to how unsuccessful Sea Lion would likely have been anyway even if the Germans had won some degree of air superiority considering that this was supposed to be a more even handed approach to that period..

Various experts have said over the years that Hitlers Generals hadn't really thought about it much at all, and in truth they probably needed 20 times the vessels & barges that they had available and they hadn't considered that they would need many multiples of the different specialist vessels like the allies used on D-day. A lot of the German high command knew this. Logistically they were very naive in their Sealion plans (amazingly they were planning to bring over hundreds of horses in the first few days) compared to the allies a few years later, something which irritated Joe Stalin no end as the allies deferred their landing and a second front until they truly did have the resources and equipment to succeed.

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20 years 9 months

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Various experts have said over the years that Hitlers Generals hadn't really thought about it much at all, and in truth they probably needed 20 times the vessels & barges that they had available and they hadn't considered that they would need many multiples of the different specialist vessels like the allies used on D-day.
There really does not seem to be any comparison between the German preparations and equipment/vessels and the gargantuan resources and planning that went in to the Allied effort just four years later. Did they have even the remotest chance of succeeding with a sea crossing in 1940 with the Royal Navy still operational? I guess we will never know (but fortunatley did not have to put that theory to the test).