Read the forum code of contact
By: - 15th December 2011 at 13:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Herbs, not The Weeds
By: - 15th December 2011 at 14:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For the painted shack panels we made - I did a lot of hunting for these pics and there is a previous thread on this topic on here somewhere...
There are pics of a few of them - Dougal, Zebedee, Florence, Brian and Paul (from memory). Others are just the wording.
The Manchester one is Dougal and the NAM is Brian - both with artwork.
The Zebedee was on the tail and not the fuselage.
found it:
By: - 15th December 2011 at 14:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Brian, however WR790 is said to have had 'Dougal' reapplied after it got to preservation, as it was in the period when the cartoons were not worn, and the Shack at NAM was of course nothing to do with 8 sqn being an MR.3, I believe the museum applied 'Brian' fairly recently and in respect of one of the volunteers there.
By: - 15th December 2011 at 14:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pagen in the last thread you can see the photo of 60 with Dougal on it - from the Airliners site.
Zebedee is here
http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1035821/
Several others shown here.
http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/oldstuff/2007/443shacktim/shack.htm
By: - 15th December 2011 at 14:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Title amended
By: - 15th December 2011 at 14:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here's one of the earlier threads http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=97767
By coincidence, this morning I picked up a Christmas card at the museum from Ken Lindsay's sister - a great family that 'lived' Shackleton WR977!! :)
By: - 15th December 2011 at 16:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've probably not been clear enough, but the feeling was in the WR963 thread that more citation is needed on the markings only concerning the 8 sqn Shackletons, ie not VP293 or the Newark Shack.
I'm aware of the previous threads on the subject, and most internet sources, but they add little in primary evidence.
It would be great to unearth some original pictures or info - it might not be forthcoming, but here's hoping!
By: - 15th December 2011 at 16:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There might be something in the NAM Archive but as it says in post #3 in the above link -
"You might be able to source more details via this organisation http://www.thegrowler.org.uk/ and they are normally very helpful at putting appeals in their newsletter."
My latest copy arrived last week!
By: - 15th December 2011 at 16:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Apology for repeating what was already known - I was the one who misunderstood. :(
Unfortunately I am an aircraft generalist rather than a specialist. So cannot help you with your detailed question.
By: - 15th December 2011 at 16:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Barry Jones book “Avro Shackleton” published by The Crowood Press in 2002 (ISBN 1 86126 449 6) contains the written 8 Squadron character references for each appropriate airframe in the Shackleton Production section – Appendix II.
These are also listed in full on page 152 in Chapter Ten – “ AEW – the 6,848-day ‘Interim Solution’ ”
Broadly speaking they tally with your post #1 but sadly there are few pictorial references.
By: - 15th December 2011 at 17:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://www.flickr.com/photos/51707647@N05/5436747433
Reported as WR960 with the character appearing to be Florence taken in 1980 however WL747 was at Greenham as Florence
http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=861190
This one is clearly WR960 with Dougal
By: - 15th December 2011 at 20:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hey, no worries Brian, I'm grateful for anyone giving my ramblings attention and helping out.:)
I guess the problem is, is that there are many photos/articles out there saying Shack such and such had so and so painetd on it, but in reality the info might come from one source which may or may not be correct, example that 8 Sqn Shack page is a fantastic article, but how do we know WL745 is 'Sage, you can't tell from the pic.
That's one reason I've posted up Chris Ashworths' list because I know just what a stickler he was about corect and checked details.
In fact the post that Dave has kindly put up above shows the pitfuls of some of the information out there and TO is right in that the list appears broadly the same in most sources but there is little to back it up.
Dave was there an airshow at Greenham in 1980, I thought they were biannual events on the odd years back then?
The picture of Dougal in the 2nd link in Daves' post is definitely the sort of thing I'm after, clearly shows the serial and cartoon!
Worth noting that WR960 is pictured with Dougal in 1980, but it was removed by the time it was pictured flying in 1982.
This certainly looks like Emintrude on WR963 in 1979, http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Avro-696-Shackleton/1264855/L/&sid=e77fe573ec8662ca7ebf498c33f3d4bc
By: - 15th December 2011 at 23:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
According to Scramble there was one in 1980.
See here http://www.scramble.nl/showreports.htm
It was the Newbury Air Festival as opposed to the International Air Tattoo and was only 1 day
I attended my first IAT at Greenham Common in 1979 and went in 1981 & 1983 before it moved to Fairford
By: - 17th December 2011 at 22:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That explains things!
By: - 17th December 2011 at 23:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just to add a bit of interest the current 8 Squadron E-3Ds are all named after the 7 dwarfs, of Snow White fame
By: - 18th December 2011 at 23:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for that LL, nice to know the tradition is being kept up by the unit!
By: - 20th December 2011 at 18:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
>>Title amended<<
You could perhaps "amend" the apostrophe too!
/pedant off
By: - 20th December 2011 at 19:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
WR960 at RAF Leuchars 14-9-1974 (That's over 37 years ago - just seems like yesterday!)
By: - 20th December 2011 at 20:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thank you Robert, more pictures like that would be hugely appreciated, I'm making some headway in my research but definitely could use more pictures.
In short the Shackletons had a cartoon applied to the port side just forward and below the pilots' window almost from delivery to the sqn over the 1972-'73 period. These were removed by mid 1982.
This could have been because of the incoming C.O, Wg Cdr D.Greenaway, wishes as mentioned in one book.
I have images showing all the Shacks with cartoons, but in many cases it's hard to work out the actual character shown.
By chance I found a set of original Magic Roundabout vinyl stickers for sale, these look identical to those on the aircraft, and at 20 inches long seem about the right size, I wonder if the sqn used thsse actual stickers on the aircraft?
Some of the characters seem to fade to a featureless bluey grey which also makes me think that they were stickers.
Also very little evidence of 'The Herbs' characters being used so far.
WR963 definitely wore the 'Emintrude' cow character in the late '70s.
WL795, usualy referred to as 'Rosalie', is shown with a 'Zebedee', which it retired with in '81 and shown in resto pics.
WR965, usually known as 'Dill', seems to have Magic Roundabouts' 'Dylan' applied in that period.
The issue of the characters names being applied was brought up on the WR963 thread.
These were applied just under the windscreen quarter panel in white lettering when the Shacks were being stored at Waddingtonin 1991, after service and pending their final deliveries, photos taken in April show no script, by June they had.
WR963 had 'Ermintrude' applied stbd side
WL790 had 'Mr McHenry' applied stb'd side, and 'Flt Lt Coxon' port side, this was still the case in 1993 while seen at Coventry, since arriving in the 'States it has had 'Mr McHenry' applied both sides, and over the pilots' name.
WL747 & '757 that went to Paphos also had titling applied, but in the pictures I have they're unreadable.
WL756 had what appears to be the pilots' name applied port side only.
I'm spending far too much time on this!:)
By: - 20th December 2011 at 20:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just to add a bit of interest the current 8 Squadron E-3Ds are all named after the 7 dwarfs, of Snow White fame
My apologies for a bit of thread drift, but back in 1996 when I did 'For Faith and Freedom' the 80th anniversay project for the Station up in Ground Ops there was a card that listed all seven aircraft and their names...
ZHI0l/'Doc', '102/'Dopey', '103/'Happy', '104' /'Sleepy', '105/'Sneezy', 106/'Grumpy' and ZH107/'Bashful'.
Posts: 10,647
By: pagen01 - 15th December 2011 at 13:46
On the Shackleton WR963 thread we started discussing the fact that all the 8 squadron Shackleton AEW.2s were named after and decorated with Magic Roundabout and The Herbs characters, the cartoon usually being applied under the cockpit windows.
VP293 a T.4 serving with the RAE had already gained the nickname Zebedee, this was down to the types’ bouncing behaviour on landing. As can be seen, Zebedee became a popular name across the breed.
From Chris Ashworth, the names applied to the 8 sqn aircraft from delivery to the unit, or after the move to Lossie (2nd date shown) in 1972-’73 were,
AEW.2s
WL741 4.4.73 ‘PC Knapweed’, ret '81
WL745 19.9.73 ‘Sage’, ret '81
WL747 11.4.72 ‘Florence’, ret '91
WL754 29.11.72 ‘Paul’, ret '81
WL756 5.5.72, 21.6.72 ‘Mr Rusty’, ret '91
WL757 29.8.72 ‘Brian’, ret '91
WL790 20.9.72, 11.5.73 ‘Mr McHenry’, ret '91
WL793 23.2.73 ‘Ermintrude’, ret '81
WL795 18.10.72 ‘Rosalie’, ret '81
WR960 8.6.72 ‘Dougal’, ret '81
WR963 1.8.72 ‘Ermintrude’, 16.8.73 ‘Parsley’, ret '91
WR965 31.1.73, 17.8.73 ‘Dill’, w/o 30.4.90
Note WR963 'Ermintrude' became 'Parsley' when WL793 became Ermintrude in Aug (?) '73.
MR.2s
WL787 19.11.71, 2 1.1.72 ‘Mr McHenry, 15.5.73 ‘Dylan’, 3.1.74
WR967 23.11.71, 10.5.72 Zebedee, grounded 7.9.72, to ‘Dodo’ trainer
WL798 Spares use
WL801 15.8.74-11.6.79
WG556 5.5.77 – 20.2.81
According to the Shackleton – At War and Peace book, a CO of the unit (likely sometime early 1980s) ordered the cartoons to be removed, but it seems that after some of the fleet returned from the major/resparring programme of '77-'81 that some of the remaining aircraft later regained a character, but not necessarily the same one they started out with.
Other names noted applied to AEWs later on from annecdotal evidence,
WR963 'Ermintrude II'
WR965 'Rosalie II'
WR965 Dylan
WL790 'Zebedee'
WL795 'Zebedee'
It seems unlike that the 'II' part of the name was applied.
The basic premise of the thread is that I would love to see pics or hear stories which tie the cartoons to the particular airframes.