By: Dan Johnson
- 26th January 2012 at 08:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The problem is with discussions like this, is folks forgetting who the film is for. It's not for us history fanatic rivet counters. It's for folks who might get the idea that there is a story behind these guys and pick up a book. It's not the movie's job to tell the complete story. The best it can hope to do is spark some interest.
In the end it's for folks like my little guy. With my oldest it was "Top Gun". It was never meant to teach him about F-14s and the Fighter Weapons School. But boy did those flying scenes with the F-14s look good to a little guy who knew Dad loved airplanes. it was up to me to teach him the history.
Now I've got this little "Red Tail" who loves Mustangs cause Dad has gotten him up close and personal to them. He sees a picture of a black pilot from WW2 and he points to the picture and then to himself. He doesn't do that with a photo of a white pilot.
I had to remind myself with this film, after tearing the trailers to shreds for the 'mistakes' that my little guy will love seeing Mustangs on the big screen. The true story will be up to me to provide as he grows up. But why would I deny him big airplanes, just because I find fault with the details of a movie. I just saw "Reach for the Sky" on TV the other day, and I cringed watching it.
I first saw it as a kid though, and all I saw were Hurricanes and Spitfires. I didn't pick out the wrong squadron codes, or the Spitfire 16 "Bader" has to bail out of. I did however track down the book and learn some more after seeing it.
I think my little guy will do the same with the black pilots in WW2 too. Note he's dressed historically correct! :)
By: James D
- 26th January 2012 at 09:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For the record, I believe I went as far as saying that I hoped that the film would be good and that I wasn´t prepared to rip it to shreds based solely on having seen the two minute trailer. Nothing more or less. The rest of the thread was largely arguing the toss about CGI in movies. That, I "defended".
I´m still waiting for that quote from me or anyone else saying that the film would be a work of genius. But there won´t be one, because it didn´t happen.
By: Arthur Pewtey
- 26th January 2012 at 10:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, as expected a movie such as this was bound to provoke comment and controversy. If, as has been suggested, that this film is aimed at a particular market and it has succeeded in that market then it has done a good job but let’s not forget why movies are made in the first place. Entertainment. Pure and simple entertainment.
The CGI involved is a case in point. Sadly those of us in the UK have only been able to watch the trailers and in those I can see very little to complain about. If the effects make the action look dramatic and exciting then that surely is the point. If there are more rivets than there should be or markings are the wrong colour then who cares? We didn’t bother when almost every other war movie ever made has some historical or factual inaccuracy. Why is this one different?
As far as being “revisionist” history is concerned, what movie isn’t? Name one war movie that hasn’t altered facts or changed the order of events to make a better or clearer narrative.
If it is “revisionist”, is it any more revisionist than the countless war movies that simply removed black people from history entirely?
I am frankly staggered that some can have such a strong opinion on movie that they have never seen. Unfortunately such blinkered views seem to be prevalent nowadays; perhaps following the crowd and being swayed by other’s opinions rather than forming one’s own informed opinion is too much to resist at times.
I have no idea whether I will like it as a film or not but I will refrain from saying so until I’ve actually seen it. My opinion will then have some credence.
This is a story worth telling and if it stimulates the younger generation to at least consider what has gone on in their history then it has succeeded.
By: The Blue Max
- 26th January 2012 at 10:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A reality chack guys, Featurs films are entertainment for the masses designed to make money. They are not documtary's. I dont like the CGI and I hate it and scream at the scren when the film makers get it wrong but as the poster above says if it sparks just one interest in history and old aeroplanes then it aint all bad. Will I go and see it?? Probably wait for the DVD.
By: Lincoln 7
- 26th January 2012 at 11:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
O.K. Guys, Forget whats been put on here, but I recieved this today from a friend in the States.
Lt Col Weathers 90 yrs young, was, on the 20th of this month, buried with full Military Honours at Arlington Nation Cemetary, Ironicaly the same day the film Red Tails was released over there.
He was one of the few remaining Tuskegee, pilots left.:(
Where would we be today had it not been for the likes of his sort?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
By: Stepwilk
- 26th January 2012 at 17:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We'll be having perhaps as many as 10 of the surviving Airmen at our annual Tuskegee Airmen chapter dinner in New Windsor, NY (just down the road from our HQ at KSWF) on 4 February. Probably including Roscoe Brown, who usually attends. If anybody reading this happens to be from the area, you're invited: go to www.tai-ny.org to buy tickets. (It is a fund-raiser for our scholarship program.)
By: Dan Johnson
- 27th January 2012 at 02:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Andy who are you talking to? And frankly you are so off on this it isn't even funny.
You haven't seen the film, but it's American 'trite'. Well this Yank has spent much of his 51 years researching both the USAAF and RAF. Should we discuss the 'triteness' of some of the films done in England regarding the war?
Or should we acknowledge that they are what they are; entertainment. I think both sides of the Atlantic can share the blame or the credit for the lack of accuracy and being 'trite'.
I take it you passed over my reply upstream. The movie wasn't made for you and me. It was made to show lots of folks who otherwise would have no idea, that there was such segregation and discrimination in the US Armed Forces during WW2 and that there was a group of African American pilots who proved that they could be as successful as any white pilot.
If it gets a kid to think about it, and potentially learn more, then the movie has done it's job.
Understand I never had to think about this being a white Dad with 3 white kids including my oldest who was my son. Any of the books I'd read since I was a kid were just fine for him as I didn't have to think about the idea of race. Great American Fighter Pilots of WW2, the book that got me started at about age 7 was just fine. I made sure he had a copy.
Then my youngest son shows up to make 4 kids. He's African American. I want to share my love of WW2 aviation with him, but there isn't a book in my very extensive collection that shows a black fighter pilot. All of a sudden it's an issue I'm going to have to address. My youngest son is just as much my son as my oldest. And he likes airplanes like Dad does.
So I am glad someone took the time to make the movie, regardless of how you want to tear into the technical history. That's my job to teach him. I'm already adding to the books, and he's got a nice print of a Red Tail 51C on his wall to go with the flight of 4 Spitfires that hung on my wall, and then my oldest sons. Seeing black pilots on the screen in P40s, and Mustangs is something he can point to and see himself. And that can't be a bad thing. And he knows the difference in color even at a little over 3 years old. When he points to a black pilot in a photo and then himself, it speaks volumes. He won't do that seeing a white pilot.
So lay off the Yanks a bit will ya. Generally you seem much more reasonable then you are showing yourself to be in this thread.
By: Bomberboy
- 27th January 2012 at 17:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Then my youngest son shows up to make 4 kids. He's African American. I want to share my love of WW2 aviation with him, but there isn't a book in my very extensive collection that shows a black fighter pilot.
Dan, there is a very nice book specifically on the Tuskeegee Airman.
I will repost with the books details etc hopefully later on tonight, because I cannot remember them now.
I have two or three black veterans signatures in the book although I wish I could get more because it would have meant I had had the honour of meeting more of them.
We did have an evening news item a couple of weeks ago, on the BBC I think, with a couple of the 332nd vets visiting the IWM at Lambeth just before, but as part of the film release in the states.
With no indication of the film even being shown at the cinemas, let alone a release date, I did find this a little odd.
By: Lincoln 7
- 27th January 2012 at 18:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=Arthur Pewtey;1844250]I have to say that the 7 minute clip I've just watched looks very good indeed. I look forward very much to seeing this movie. A story that deserves to be told to bigger audience.
Arthur, Guess this is the 1st time you and I agree on something. CGIs apart, this film tells a story of bravery of black pilots who, even though well trained, and indeed to die for the USA were considered inferior because of their colour. I wonder if one or two of the posters here on this thread would change their minds, if they were flying during the war and found an FW 109 on their 6, and who had you bang to rights in his sights, and then suddenly yoe see your enemy smokin, going down, having been shot down by one of the Tuskagee pilots.
Personaly I wouldn't care if he was all the colours of the rainbow, and being flown by Mr Blobby, he saved me to fight another day.
I have also seen the film regarding a coloured man who trained to become the 1st U.S. Navy Seal diver, he was put through the mill big time, just because of his colour.
Blast,I forgot to mention the current President of the USA, Obama :confused:
Didn't do too bad for himself, did he?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
New
Posts: 3,208
By: Mike J
- 27th January 2012 at 19:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Blast,I forgot to mention the current President of the USA, Obama :confused:
Didn't do too bad for himself, did he?
That's a matter of opinion, but this is neither the time nor the place so let's not go there.
By: Lincoln 7
- 27th January 2012 at 19:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
MikeJ.. Now thats strange. I have a friend who is a top Surgeon in San Diego, and he states, also the others he works with, the same as you, so one can only gather..............................................;)
By: Bomberboy
- 27th January 2012 at 23:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dan, there is a very nice book specifically on the Tuskeegee Airman.
I will repost with the books details etc hopefully later on tonight, because I cannot remember them now.
Dan, if your still interested, the book is titled 'Tuskegee's Heroes' featuring the aviation are of Roy LaGrone. The author is Charlie & Ann Cooper, published by Motorbooks International in 1996 and the ISBN No. is 0-7603-0254-5.
Roy LaGrone is also one of the Tuskegee Airman himself.
I have two or three black veterans signatures in the book.
I actually have two signatures in it and they are:- Lee A 'Buddy' Archer and Charles Edward McGee.
I hope this is helpful for you in your goal to help tell the story to your young lad.
By: paul178
- 28th January 2012 at 00:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I will see this film one day until then I will refain from commenting on it. I cannot sit through a full length film without at least one pee and a couple of fags. I will wait until it comes out on DVD and is on sale in a charity shop for a pound!
By: Nostalgair
- 28th January 2012 at 04:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi All,
On a slightly different note, I was fortunate to fly in one of the 'Red Tails' original Boeing Stearman trainers. It is beautifully restored and now resides at Wollongong, to the south of Sydney, Australia. It's operated by 'Southern Biplanes'.
By: Dan Johnson
- 28th January 2012 at 07:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dan, if your still interested, the book is titled 'Tuskegee's Heroes' featuring the aviation are of Roy LaGrone. The author is Charlie & Ann Cooper, published by Motorbooks International in 1996 and the ISBN No. is 0-7603-0254-5.
Roy LaGrone is also one of the Tuskegee Airman himself.
I actually have two signatures in it and they are:- Lee A 'Buddy' Archer and Charles Edward McGee.
I hope this is helpful for you in your goal to help tell the story to your young lad.
Bomberboy
Thanks for the titles Bomberboy. I've added a few books to his shelf already. He has this thing for Mustangs already. With Dad being a Spitfire XII guy I'm sure we'll have conflict eventually :)
My oldest was a Luftwaffe 109 and 190 fan. Not sure where I went wrong!
Matthew and I have the "Red Tail Project" P51C nearby and we've support that. Ironically that Mustang was the first I ever saw up close when it was in pieces next to a hanger near where I grew up so I was in the cockpit when I was about 15.
The key is to start em early. Nothing better then sharing a love of history and aviation with your little guy :)
Posts: 933
By: Dan Johnson - 26th January 2012 at 08:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The problem is with discussions like this, is folks forgetting who the film is for. It's not for us history fanatic rivet counters. It's for folks who might get the idea that there is a story behind these guys and pick up a book. It's not the movie's job to tell the complete story. The best it can hope to do is spark some interest.
In the end it's for folks like my little guy. With my oldest it was "Top Gun". It was never meant to teach him about F-14s and the Fighter Weapons School. But boy did those flying scenes with the F-14s look good to a little guy who knew Dad loved airplanes. it was up to me to teach him the history.
Now I've got this little "Red Tail" who loves Mustangs cause Dad has gotten him up close and personal to them. He sees a picture of a black pilot from WW2 and he points to the picture and then to himself. He doesn't do that with a photo of a white pilot.
I had to remind myself with this film, after tearing the trailers to shreds for the 'mistakes' that my little guy will love seeing Mustangs on the big screen. The true story will be up to me to provide as he grows up. But why would I deny him big airplanes, just because I find fault with the details of a movie. I just saw "Reach for the Sky" on TV the other day, and I cringed watching it.
I first saw it as a kid though, and all I saw were Hurricanes and Spitfires. I didn't pick out the wrong squadron codes, or the Spitfire 16 "Bader" has to bail out of. I did however track down the book and learn some more after seeing it.
I think my little guy will do the same with the black pilots in WW2 too. Note he's dressed historically correct! :)
Posts: 490
By: James D - 26th January 2012 at 09:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For the record, I believe I went as far as saying that I hoped that the film would be good and that I wasn´t prepared to rip it to shreds based solely on having seen the two minute trailer. Nothing more or less. The rest of the thread was largely arguing the toss about CGI in movies. That, I "defended".
I´m still waiting for that quote from me or anyone else saying that the film would be a work of genius. But there won´t be one, because it didn´t happen.
Posts: 985
By: Arthur Pewtey - 26th January 2012 at 10:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, as expected a movie such as this was bound to provoke comment and controversy. If, as has been suggested, that this film is aimed at a particular market and it has succeeded in that market then it has done a good job but let’s not forget why movies are made in the first place. Entertainment. Pure and simple entertainment.
The CGI involved is a case in point. Sadly those of us in the UK have only been able to watch the trailers and in those I can see very little to complain about. If the effects make the action look dramatic and exciting then that surely is the point. If there are more rivets than there should be or markings are the wrong colour then who cares? We didn’t bother when almost every other war movie ever made has some historical or factual inaccuracy. Why is this one different?
As far as being “revisionist” history is concerned, what movie isn’t? Name one war movie that hasn’t altered facts or changed the order of events to make a better or clearer narrative.
If it is “revisionist”, is it any more revisionist than the countless war movies that simply removed black people from history entirely?
I am frankly staggered that some can have such a strong opinion on movie that they have never seen. Unfortunately such blinkered views seem to be prevalent nowadays; perhaps following the crowd and being swayed by other’s opinions rather than forming one’s own informed opinion is too much to resist at times.
I have no idea whether I will like it as a film or not but I will refrain from saying so until I’ve actually seen it. My opinion will then have some credence.
This is a story worth telling and if it stimulates the younger generation to at least consider what has gone on in their history then it has succeeded.
Posts: 2,106
By: The Blue Max - 26th January 2012 at 10:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A reality chack guys, Featurs films are entertainment for the masses designed to make money. They are not documtary's. I dont like the CGI and I hate it and scream at the scren when the film makers get it wrong but as the poster above says if it sparks just one interest in history and old aeroplanes then it aint all bad. Will I go and see it?? Probably wait for the DVD.
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 26th January 2012 at 11:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
O.K. Guys, Forget whats been put on here, but I recieved this today from a friend in the States.
Lt Col Weathers 90 yrs young, was, on the 20th of this month, buried with full Military Honours at Arlington Nation Cemetary, Ironicaly the same day the film Red Tails was released over there.
He was one of the few remaining Tuskegee, pilots left.:(
Where would we be today had it not been for the likes of his sort?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 629
By: Stepwilk - 26th January 2012 at 17:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We'll be having perhaps as many as 10 of the surviving Airmen at our annual Tuskegee Airmen chapter dinner in New Windsor, NY (just down the road from our HQ at KSWF) on 4 February. Probably including Roscoe Brown, who usually attends. If anybody reading this happens to be from the area, you're invited: go to www.tai-ny.org to buy tickets. (It is a fund-raiser for our scholarship program.)
Posts: 2,778
By: Andy in Beds - 26th January 2012 at 20:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
.
Posts: 2,778
By: Andy in Beds - 26th January 2012 at 23:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
.
Posts: 933
By: Dan Johnson - 27th January 2012 at 02:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Andy who are you talking to? And frankly you are so off on this it isn't even funny.
You haven't seen the film, but it's American 'trite'. Well this Yank has spent much of his 51 years researching both the USAAF and RAF. Should we discuss the 'triteness' of some of the films done in England regarding the war?
Or should we acknowledge that they are what they are; entertainment. I think both sides of the Atlantic can share the blame or the credit for the lack of accuracy and being 'trite'.
I take it you passed over my reply upstream. The movie wasn't made for you and me. It was made to show lots of folks who otherwise would have no idea, that there was such segregation and discrimination in the US Armed Forces during WW2 and that there was a group of African American pilots who proved that they could be as successful as any white pilot.
If it gets a kid to think about it, and potentially learn more, then the movie has done it's job.
Understand I never had to think about this being a white Dad with 3 white kids including my oldest who was my son. Any of the books I'd read since I was a kid were just fine for him as I didn't have to think about the idea of race. Great American Fighter Pilots of WW2, the book that got me started at about age 7 was just fine. I made sure he had a copy.
Then my youngest son shows up to make 4 kids. He's African American. I want to share my love of WW2 aviation with him, but there isn't a book in my very extensive collection that shows a black fighter pilot. All of a sudden it's an issue I'm going to have to address. My youngest son is just as much my son as my oldest. And he likes airplanes like Dad does.
So I am glad someone took the time to make the movie, regardless of how you want to tear into the technical history. That's my job to teach him. I'm already adding to the books, and he's got a nice print of a Red Tail 51C on his wall to go with the flight of 4 Spitfires that hung on my wall, and then my oldest sons. Seeing black pilots on the screen in P40s, and Mustangs is something he can point to and see himself. And that can't be a bad thing. And he knows the difference in color even at a little over 3 years old. When he points to a black pilot in a photo and then himself, it speaks volumes. He won't do that seeing a white pilot.
So lay off the Yanks a bit will ya. Generally you seem much more reasonable then you are showing yourself to be in this thread.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 27th January 2012 at 05:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thread temporarily closed for review
And open again after ten minutes editing to maintain the sense. It won't happen again. Personal spats by PM please.
This will be closed again, permanently, if a US v UK squabble replaces discussion of the topic title
Bruce / Moggy
Posts: 839
By: Bomberboy - 27th January 2012 at 17:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dan, there is a very nice book specifically on the Tuskeegee Airman.
I will repost with the books details etc hopefully later on tonight, because I cannot remember them now.
I have two or three black veterans signatures in the book although I wish I could get more because it would have meant I had had the honour of meeting more of them.
We did have an evening news item a couple of weeks ago, on the BBC I think, with a couple of the 332nd vets visiting the IWM at Lambeth just before, but as part of the film release in the states.
With no indication of the film even being shown at the cinemas, let alone a release date, I did find this a little odd.
Bomberboy
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 27th January 2012 at 18:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=Arthur Pewtey;1844250]I have to say that the 7 minute clip I've just watched looks very good indeed. I look forward very much to seeing this movie. A story that deserves to be told to bigger audience.
Arthur, Guess this is the 1st time you and I agree on something. CGIs apart, this film tells a story of bravery of black pilots who, even though well trained, and indeed to die for the USA were considered inferior because of their colour. I wonder if one or two of the posters here on this thread would change their minds, if they were flying during the war and found an FW 109 on their 6, and who had you bang to rights in his sights, and then suddenly yoe see your enemy smokin, going down, having been shot down by one of the Tuskagee pilots.
Personaly I wouldn't care if he was all the colours of the rainbow, and being flown by Mr Blobby, he saved me to fight another day.
I have also seen the film regarding a coloured man who trained to become the 1st U.S. Navy Seal diver, he was put through the mill big time, just because of his colour.
Blast,I forgot to mention the current President of the USA, Obama :confused:
Didn't do too bad for himself, did he?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 3,208
By: Mike J - 27th January 2012 at 19:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's a matter of opinion, but this is neither the time nor the place so let's not go there.
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 27th January 2012 at 19:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
MikeJ.. Now thats strange. I have a friend who is a top Surgeon in San Diego, and he states, also the others he works with, the same as you, so one can only gather..............................................;)
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 839
By: Bomberboy - 27th January 2012 at 23:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dan, if your still interested, the book is titled 'Tuskegee's Heroes' featuring the aviation are of Roy LaGrone. The author is Charlie & Ann Cooper, published by Motorbooks International in 1996 and the ISBN No. is 0-7603-0254-5.
Roy LaGrone is also one of the Tuskegee Airman himself.
I actually have two signatures in it and they are:- Lee A 'Buddy' Archer and Charles Edward McGee.
I hope this is helpful for you in your goal to help tell the story to your young lad.
Bomberboy
Posts: 839
By: Bomberboy - 27th January 2012 at 23:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hey Mike, I have sent you some PM's lately?
Is your inbox full?
Bomberboy
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 28th January 2012 at 00:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I will see this film one day until then I will refain from commenting on it. I cannot sit through a full length film without at least one pee and a couple of fags. I will wait until it comes out on DVD and is on sale in a charity shop for a pound!
BTW the USAF or should it be The USAAF were not the only ones to have black fighter pilots we had at least one!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/spiralsheep/4034645717/
Posts: 83
By: Nostalgair - 28th January 2012 at 04:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi All,
On a slightly different note, I was fortunate to fly in one of the 'Red Tails' original Boeing Stearman trainers. It is beautifully restored and now resides at Wollongong, to the south of Sydney, Australia. It's operated by 'Southern Biplanes'.
Here's a piece I wrote about the flight.
http://www.owenzupp.com/_blog/Owen_Zupp/post/A_Glimpse_of_the_'Red_Tails'_An_Aviation_Blog_by_Owen_Zupp/
Cheers,
Owen
Posts: 933
By: Dan Johnson - 28th January 2012 at 07:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for the titles Bomberboy. I've added a few books to his shelf already. He has this thing for Mustangs already. With Dad being a Spitfire XII guy I'm sure we'll have conflict eventually :)
My oldest was a Luftwaffe 109 and 190 fan. Not sure where I went wrong!
Matthew and I have the "Red Tail Project" P51C nearby and we've support that. Ironically that Mustang was the first I ever saw up close when it was in pieces next to a hanger near where I grew up so I was in the cockpit when I was about 15.
The key is to start em early. Nothing better then sharing a love of history and aviation with your little guy :)
Twilight Tear isn't too far away either:)
Posts: 347
By: timuss - 28th January 2012 at 11:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
still no mention of a UK release date as yet. Shame as i was looking forward to watching this.