Amelia Earhart, TIGHAR, Hillary Clinton, Pres Obama.....

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I think it unlikely that the bomb aimer would have survived the war, if he had casually mentioned that he might just have ditched his bombs on Glen Miller, who was I believe quite popular at that time!
As a professional, I'd hope he's tell somebody.. -to give closue to the families of the people on board -or to prevent a similar accident from happeniong in the future. Too much to ask?

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They did.... [QUOTE=J Boyle;1875142]Any idea why the troops didn't say anything at the time? I understand that AE's disappearance was a bigger story in the US than Australia, but did they say anything at the time? If not, why? Mr. Boyle.... The Patrol Report made when the patrol returned did inform their HQ thatbthey had found an aircraft. Since it had P & Wengines this information was passed down through the echelons of the Army and did reach the USAAF in Port Moresby or wherever their HQ and ADmon section was at the time. By April 1945 the 5th Air Force had left New Guinea and the 14th AF was moving through. Five weeks after the find, the Army Company were informed by a Staff Officer that "...the Americans say it is not one of theirs, don't worry about it". Some of the Company at reunions in Perth, W.A. over the years also remember the Officer sayign that the Americans had also sadi that the aircraft "could be" a Lockheed. Not all the Vets I interviewed remembered this. There was interest from "the Americans", because two US Army Officers visited the fighting zone to speak to Lt. Backhouse but he was out on another patrol and they left. So, it was reported and there was some follow-up but no result. RPM
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As a professional, I'd hope he's tell somebody.. -to give closue to the families of the people on board
"Closure" hadn't been invented back then It is an entirely new construct of broadcast media in the touchy-feely 21st Century Moggy

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The veracity of the Veterans has been questioned, both here and by others. I met all of the four survivors of the patrol and I do not doubt the words of any of them, neither would anyone else who met them. I believe it is despicable to question the honesty of men never met and who had no public personna, no fame in the press, none were celebrities and none have any seedy convictions in law. RPM
No it is not despicable as you claim, it is simply normal process in assessing any claim or witness statement. Is any court despicable because prosecutors and defence lawyers question police and other witnesses - no, because if they didn't then the jury would not be properly informed as to the veracity of the statements being made against an accused person because they are entitled to a fair trial and the presumption of innocence. All I am doing, as would be any person with appropriate training, is seeking to verify a claim by someone who is using the witness statements to build a case to attract donations from the public to prove the existence or otherwise of the missing aircraft. Whether the witness is a military veteran, a devout priest or a convicted criminal their statements all carry the same weight until proven or otherwise - that is how it works. I find it interesting that the locals are unaware of the crash site - my own experience of indigenous populations is that they have quite detailed knowledge of their territories and given the somewhat rare occurrence of any aircraft in that part of the world in 1937 I would expect the crash of the Electra to be particularly prominent in their cultural traditions. Of course the abundance of aircraft around in WW2 might have overshadowed that so we must also take that into account. As I have said there is much of interest in your theory. Obviously what is lacking is positive identification which will only be achieved if the wreck is found, and if it is verified as the Electra rather than another wreck. The fuel figures are interesting but they alone do not narrow the search area in any significant way as they could apply equally to flying to the Gilberts, flying to New Britain or flying up and down on the 157/337 line with an eventual crash or ditching somewhere along that line or indeed even on Gardner Island. I remain particularly disturbed by the claim that you have evidence available for Noonan's DNA, which is not available to TIGHAR for undisclosed reasons. I always find such claims to be unconvincing. Some time back on this forum there was a spirited thread regarding the existence of a secret wartime bunker under Rockhampton, the proponent of which refused to reveal any details and basically demanded that their unsubstantiated word be accepted, as you may guess that did not happen and we are yet to see any material evidence to verify that claim from anyone. And a few years ago there was another unsubstantiated claim by someone that the Germans had bought sugar beet farms in eastern England prior to WW2 for the express purpose of laying out secret airfields to aid the landing of troops when Germany went to war against Britain. Again there was a spirited and passionate claim and again there was no evidence ever produced to support the claim. Now regarding the Noonan DNA claim I would be further convinced of its bona fides if this was just more than a take it or leave statement. As I have said it is these sorts of things that seem to split the various theorists into warring camps which isn't particularly good. If the DNA claim comes back to simple personal issues then I would suggest that those need to be tossed. The New Britain claim, as I see it, is as possible as any of the other four that I outlined in my previous post. I would like to see it resolved one way or the other.
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"Closure" hadn't been invented back then. It is an entirely new construct of broadcast media in the touchy-feely 21st Century
Good for you for finally saying it. I agree entirely.
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Whether the witness is a military veteran, a devout priest or a convicted criminal their statements all carry the same weight until proven or otherwise - that is how it works.
It has always amused me that extraterrestrial-object sightings are always given vastly greater weight when the witness is a priest, a cop or an airline pilot--three of the most raffish professions I can think of...

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As a professional, I'd hope he's tell somebody.. -to give closue to the families of the people on board -or to prevent a similar accident from happeniong in the future. Too much to ask?
Oh c'mon, perhaps the chap was not a fan of big band music, :D
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"Closure" hadn't been invented back then It is an entirely new construct of broadcast media in the touchy-feely 21st Century Moggy
Good for you for finally saying it. I agree entirely.
Of course "closure" is a new term (I fear we've all been "Oprahized") but it's just a new word for an old need. That's why civilizations have had burial rituals, memorials and the like since the dawn of time. I'm sorry if you don't like the term I used, but I'm sure a family would like to know what happened to its loved one. Look at the many posts on this forum that call for investigation and exhumation of wartime crash sites. Same idea. RE: Miller, I can't understand why anyone with information not coming forward at the time.

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Reading and Digesting.... Continually, I find that people read....but do not digest.... I did not say that "I" have evidence of Noonan's DNA. I said I know that someone has it and that TIGHAR knows of that. Whether or not TIGHAR has access to it is TIGHAR's business and the business of the person who has it. I am certainly not going to discuss the why's and wherefore's behind that. Similarly, "I" have a person willing to give me access to Amelia Earhart's DNA who is direct in the maternalline but that person does not wish "a name" to be made public and access will only be given on finding something positive. Before we go any further, it has been said that quite often "professionals" are not always right and "amateurs" are not always wrong. Academia and qualifications sometimes mean very little in many fields. I agree with that. In the vastness of the New Guinea Jungle, it would not be unusual for the local people not to know every nook and cranny within their local area. We have seen things in there that the local people have not seen because we have been to areas that they have never been. They did not know of a 150 foot waterfall for instance. They did not know of some species of animals for instance, which we think are "new". A frog with claws on its digits for one (which I am told by an academic 'learned' expert on frogs is, ".....an impossibility", yet it exists in an old volcano), a 12-inch tail-less "glider" mammal, a 9-inch mollusc which is totally transparent except for its' organs and a 7-8 foot long variety of snake which appears to be a very large tree snake with a bright yellow colour around it's mouth and a pale electric blue body. None of these things have been seen by the local people. In 1994, with us were ten local people who had never been to the area we explored. I made comment of this and it is due to the fact that a nomadic incestuous tribe lived in the area who were killers and plunderers and who were only eradicated from the area in 1951. They still remember that era. Their village sufferred from that. Hunting and gathering takes place on the lowlands in the main, they do not normally climb the hills. Stating the obvious seems to be a passion with some people and I of all people fully recognise that my Project will not be complete until we do find that twin-engined, all-metal, unpainted wreck on a hillside which we know was fitted with P & W engines. "Misquoted and misread" - I have lost count of the number of times. RPM

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You said -
[I] It would be excellent if more skeletal material was found but again that will only be of use if it can be proven to be the remains of Earhart because Noonan appears to have no known living relatives so DNA or Mitochondrial DNA sampling would be of no use. Ahah, I know someone who does have Noonan's DNA, so it would be possible.
That can be read as either that person has Noonan's DNA in the purely biological sense i.e a physical descendant or descendant of a close relative, or that that person has access to some biological data concerning Noonan's DNA, so to then state - Continually, I find that people read....but do not digest.... I did not say that "I" have evidence of Noonan's DNA. I said I know that someone has it and that TIGHAR knows of that. Whether or not TIGHAR has access to it is TIGHAR's business and the business of the person who has it. I am certainly not going to discuss the why's and wherefore's behind that. is disingenuous and advances the argument or your claims no further - it only creates a dispute over semantics. I read and quite clearly understood what your first statement implied. In cases like this stating the obvious is often the only way to get to the truth of the matter. As I see it you have precisely no more evidence than I do as to the existence or otherwise of the New Britain wreck and importantly whether or not it is Earhart and Noonan's aircraft. You simply have the account of the Australian patrol and the notes on the map. So I'll risk stating the obvious again until the wreck is found and identified please remember that I like any other person following the conflicting hypotheses is perfectly entitled to question them closely. You said Academia and qualifications sometimes mean very little in many fields. I agree with that. Well most amateurs generally do and that is why perhaps they find funding so very difficult to find. As for "Misquoted and misread" - I have lost count of the number of times. that hasn't happened here as far as I can see. A fair hearing is one in which each side can present and question data.

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As a professional, I'd hope he's tell somebody.. -to give closue to the families of the people on board -or to prevent a similar accident from happeniong in the future. Too much to ask?
He was in all probability a conscript rather than a professional, but I know what you mean. I watched the program several times a good few years ago, it seemed plausable, (if a little disappointing that his loss could be explained away so easily) but now I'm not too sure; you would think for example if he had seen the bombs hit an unidentified plane that he might have blurted something out to the rest of the crew, they would then be complicite in a cover up, and their silence as a whole crew is less likely. The reality is that if GM's plane is in the English channel, that is literally a drop in the ocean with regards to the Pacific, and that hasn't been found

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...you would think for example if he had seen the bombs hit an unidentified plane that he might have blurted something out to the rest of the crew, they would then be complicite in a cover up, and their silence as a whole crew is less likely.
Quote from Wikipedia:
One hundred and thirty-eight Lancaster bombers, short on fuel, jettisoned approximately 100,000 incendiaries in a designated area before landing. The logbooks of Royal Air Force navigator Fred Shaw recorded that he saw a small, single-engined monoplane spiraling out of control and crashing into the water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Miller#Disappearance Not a very good starting point for a ‘cover-up’ since Fred Shaw didn’t know it was Glenn Miller’s plane that he’d seen crash; the possibility for a cover-up could only occur later (presumably after Fred Shaw had recorded the crash in his logbook). I’m not sure how, or when, Miller’s loss was reported at the time (and this news may have been suppressed for some days). If I remember the story correctly Fred Shaw did report to his crew what he saw ‘a small plane has gone-in down there’ but none of the rest of the crew actually saw it (amongst the 4000lb ‘cookie’ bombs exploding on the sea). I think Fred only made the connection with Miller when he saw a movie about him many years later.

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Although he didn't need to know who was in the plane, to know that killing the occupants wasn't going to be popular; as for the logbook, (sceptic hat on) we haven't seen the verified original, and are unlikely to do so, as the chap in question was last heard of in South Africa, and that must have been 10 yrs ago. Some people do strange things in the latter years of their lives, like the woman passing herself off as the Tzars daughter Anastasia, or the other K Williams and the Stork hotel, or indeed to come back on topic, the woman in (New Jersey?) pretending to be Amelia Earhart.....

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In the vastness of the New Guinea Jungle, it would not be unusual for the local people not to know every nook and cranny within their local area. We have seen things in there that the local people have not seen because we have been to areas that they have never been. They did not know of a 150 foot waterfall for instance. They did not know of some species of animals for instance, which we think are "new". A frog with claws on its digits for one (which I am told by an academic 'learned' expert on frogs is, ".....an impossibility", yet it exists in an old volcano), a 12-inch tail-less "glider" mammal, a 9-inch mollusc which is totally transparent except for its' organs and a 7-8 foot long variety of snake which appears to be a very large tree snake with a bright yellow colour around it's mouth and a pale electric blue body. None of these things have been seen by the local people.
(Off Topic) Cool - and no doubt worth an expedition in themselves! Got any pics?

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A Lot Of Wind. I'm still surprised about how much hot air the subject of this thread generates. TIGHAR don't have a shred of evidence, and will try and make any item of junk they pick-up fit the 'facts'. At least the New Britain theory seems to have the engine-number to point to the possibility it might be true, but is still short of any shred of actual evidence. The one real incontrovertible fact at the centre of all this windage is that the Pacific is truly vast. Most of us really have no actual concept of how big it is, ( ..and how deep it is.). Try turning a globe....you can turn it blue, the whole hemisphere, with only a few minute islands hidden amid the countless miles of sea, with no landmass in sight. The mere though of trawling-around looking for these shreds of corroded metal amongst this vastness is laughable. Without suitable navaids, trying to find any tiny object, be it an island, atoll or ship, it going to be almost impossible. Aerhart & Noonan weren't fools, but like many during that period, they were risk-takers, driven by adventure and fame. They took a risk and paid the price. Period. We have even less chance of finding the corroded shreds of their aircraft than they did of finding their landfall with no working navaids. Aerhart & Noonan are long dead, - which is the only fact we really DO know. We even already know where they died - roughly. We know HOW they died too. They ran out of fuel - and LUCK. Exactly which Lat-Long they met their death at won't change a thing. It really doesn't matter a damn. It's not like they are forgotten or overlooked. Everything we need to know is there - in documents and photographs. People wax-on about this incident as though there were some great mystery. There isn't. If all this effort and windage and expense was applied to airframes that we have - or know exist, we'd have a tangible outcome to see in the air, rather than just a pointless superfluity of hot air.
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Hooray--sense prevails at least somewhere.

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I'm still surprised about how much hot air the subject of this thread generates...
Yes.....not like all the other threads on this forum! ;)

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Earharts Electra Having read countless theories, and discounted a lot, I look forward to the TIGHAR July search which I suspect will turn up nothing. The Billings ENB theory, which originally I thought was a non-starter, has now become my most favoured explanation. The map notes seem inexplicable other than it refers to Earharts Electra.He seems to have more than any of the other 'researchers'. I'm surprised he can't get more interest.

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Little Interest... Anson says: Earharts Electra ________________________________________ Having read countless theories, and discounted a lot, I look forward to the TIGHAR July search which I suspect will turn up nothing. The Billings ENB theory, which originally I thought was a non-starter, has now become my most favoured explanation. The map notes seem inexplicable other than it refers to Earharts Electra.He seems to have more than any of the other 'researchers'. I'm surprised he can't get more interest. As the person who “heads-up” the New Britain Project….. So am I. Oh, I have had offers to fund the Project but most of them are based on greed and I reject them, most also do not take into consideration my team’s efforts and expense and most want information as to “where it is” so they can start their own little excursions without a thought to the difficulties involved. The greed takes various forms of attempts but is just basically: “Greed”… Some want the Electra to take away and use for whatever purposes they seem fit like in a travelling circus or permanent exhibit in a place of their choice when it will not be theirs to take away. It will not be mine either. Some want to “Ah, we can come in with you, Yes ?” carrying TV cameras in the knowledge that when it is found, footage of the find can be syndicated around the world. Some want to accompany an expedition carrying same TV cameras and then ask for rights to the story without putting a cent up front to assist my team. Some want the story and offer half what you need to carry out a decently equipped expedition and then want “all rights” to the story, leaving you half-shod and signed away. As soon as I smell greed I reject the approach. I have been at this now for eighteen years and I and my team have spent a bundle with only minimal assistance from America, which surprised me a lot considering what we have in evidence. The big obstacle in my opinion is that we are not Americans and therefore, “what do we know ?”. Well, I’ve been researching this saga since 1993 and I see statements in forums and books and magazines that are ill-informed and sometimes downright inane. Over the last few days the New Britain Project has been discussed and is still being discussed on the Tighar Forum and even they with their supposed knowledge, they can’t get it right either. Lately, they think I can get confused between a P&W Wasp and a Wright Cyclone…ah, well. There is a B-17 there and I have seen it but it is well away from where we now search. The story has been on this Forum, the Pprune Forum and the Warbirds Forum and the website has been up since 2004. To any genuine sponsor, I will answer any question on this saga to the best of my ability. The big question is “range”. How could the Electra fly for approximately4350 miles ? There are a few pointers to the superb (for its’ time) qualities of the Electra: 1. The wing design married to the fuselage, the explanation of the efficiency I read in a book sounded feasible to me. 2. Earhart’s “practical operation” of the Electra as put forward by Johnson and honed by Mantz led me to look into what information was available on fuel used on flights. Scant though it is, I firmly believe the “lean” way she operated the Electra conserved gas. 3. Clarence Williams strip map for ADEN-DAKAR of 4302 miles in 28 hours 40 minutes at 150 mph Groundspeed in NIL wind. Why produce a flight plan for this if the Electra could not do it ? The Lockheed figures show that she would have needed 1267 USG in a capacity of 1151 USG. 4. Earhart was obviously operating the engines at “Lean of Peak”. This is clearly shown in “Last Flight” where it is written that one engine was “in and out”…. “leaned too much”, she said. 5. On arrival at Wheeler Field she was asked what she would have done if she had “missed” Oahu. In the reply she said she had “over four hours of gas left”. The Lockheed figures say that she should have had less than that. 6. The “Daily Express” the sister ship of C/N1055 flew from Blackpool to New York at the 5000 foot level (to avoid icing) across the Atlantic on 1200 USG of gas and had some top up from cans and still arrived at New York with gas to spare. It was also equipped with De-Icer boots which mar the efficiency of the wing. Why New Britain ? That was not the intention at first. The intention was for The Gilberts in-line with her statement to Gene Vidal about what she would do if she could not find Howland. She would not expect to see The Gilberts for four hours and yet from what I gather she saw them after one and three-quarter hours. That threw the question into the hat of, “What do we do now? We still have gas”. "We have islands in front of us that we can reach without putting it down here." Rabaul had two good airfields (there was a third also) What fuel consumption could she get it down to ? On page 37 of “Last Flight” is written: “At 10,000 feet, 120 Indicated airspeed, I am using less than 20 gallons of gas”. Earhart had slowed down the Electra as she did not want to arrive at Wheeler Field in the dark. She had pulled the power “back” from Cruise power to a setting which gave her 120 IAS (I believe this to have been CIAS) and which “slowed down the Electra”. Now, the Cruise Power setting by Lockheed is 38 USGPH for the time of the sector (at the 14 hour point). Only yesterday someone who should know better said “This is 20 USG PER engine” i.e; 40 USGPH. Now I ask: “How can you slow down the Electra from Cruise Power of 38 USGPH by using a power setting of 40 USGPH ?” How close are we to finding it ? We have wasted some time on “red herrings” and were looking in a totally incorrect area for the first few years. Information then became available which led us to the general area of where it is and with more research to the actual ridgeline where it is. After two expeditions last year and further information we received, we are now very close. It is buried but we are in the correct area. Sponsors I have had a few people sends some funds and to date that has been a total of around US$35,000 which has been spent on three or four expeditions as an assist to our own money. What I am looking for is someone who will sponsor this and then sit back and wait for us to find it. When we do find it I will acknowledge the assistance and with any income we receive I will refund the money. I still work at 72 and am currently in Singapore looking after a Fokker F100 on maintenance. I am due for a break shortly and may find the time to take a trip in if some of the team are available. David Billings RPM, FF, TGT…

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..... David Billings RPM, FF, TGT…
David the more I consider your hypothesis the less sceptical I am becoming - not sold you understand, but it does offer a hypothesis that cannot be dismissed immediately as fanciful. You will also have seen that I am one of those on the TIGHAR forum suggesting that New Britain deserves greater attention than TIGHAR is prepared to acknowledge and I also am not falling for the trap of confusing a P&W engine with a Wright Cyclone. The TIGHAR hypothesis concerning Nikumaroro still waits to be either proved or disproved and as I have continually said over at that forum, and copped abuse for it, if they don't find anything clearly from the Earhart Electra this year then they have to bite the bullet and admit there is nothing. I don't apologise if my questioning is at times a bit hard nosed and direct because that generally is the only way to cut through the verbiage to the nub. I am not really interested in ideals, inspirational silliness about the sacredness of establishing truth etc. etc. that's for amateurs - I am only interested in the data. Find the data and you find the truth.