By: BobKat
- 22nd August 2019 at 12:02Permalink- Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
Thanks for your confirmation Peter. After a lengthy search I have now found a picture showing the same piece on the FN5 front turret, so I think we can reasonably assume our piece is from the front turret.
The next batch is numbered 115C. There are three fractured lengths of black metal tubing. I would guess that these are most likely to be from a supporting strut for some piece of equipment such as the bomb aimer's computer or the bomb sight. The interesting feature is the ridged interior of the shaped end-piece shown in the enlarged detail. Does anyone recognise this, please?
There is also a piece of fabric which I assume is likely to be from the nose blackout curtain.
Laurent tells me that the black tubing of 115C is not metal, but is a kind of plastic which has suffered extreme heat. Does this help anyone? Does that make it more or less likely that it could be a bomb aimer's computor or bomb sight support strut?
By: BobKat
- 25th August 2019 at 13:02Permalink- Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
I had hoped that someone might have been able to confirm where plastic or composite material tubing was used on the aircraft, but it seems this is not to be. Perhaps somebody may yet be able to throw some light on this?
The next batch of items is numbered 115A. At the top of the first picture below is a mangled length of rusty metal which may be one of the flying control tie-rods. There is what appears to be a rectangular serial number or identification plate, but it is too rusty to show anything legible.
There are a couple of interesting items. First, there is a distinctive heavy-duty bolt with the head showing two flat and two curved sides with a hollow depression in its centre. Illustrations accompanying AP2062 A&C and the Mk.X parts lists show that this is the bolt for the aileron operating lever on the rear spar. The second item is a fragment of a spring. This seems likely to be part of the spring for the boost lever on the front spar, but this is not certain. If right, this would have to be from the starboard side. Engine pieces were found close by so this would make sense. Other springs noted in the parts list seem to be less robust.
The heavy-duty bolt is of note because this is fairly convincing evidence that the forward fuselage was still attached to the main spar and that any fragmentation of the fuselage as the aircraft broke up must have taken place behind this point. This is consistent with other pieces found.
By: BobKat
- 26th August 2019 at 10:20Permalink- Edited 26th August 2019 at 10:48
Peter, that certainly opens up a new line of enquiry. It would fit with Laurent's description of the material as I see that asbestos plastic was used in aircraft for insulation of pipework, possibly in radar scanning equipment amongst other things.
Does anyone know where this might have been used on a Lancaster, please?
Peter, I have just discovered your post in 2004 on the "WWII aircraft and asbestos" thread. In that you say that it was around the main heat duct and the coolant pipes in the port and starboard inner leading edge panels. Could we be looking at a cooling pipe? I will see what I can find out.
Many thanks Peter. Maybe that's what we have. I don't suppose you have any pictures of what it looked like in situ? Assuming that the starboard main plane was still attached to the fuselage, is this where it would be found? I will see if Laurent can provide any more information.
By: BobKat
- 2nd September 2019 at 09:28Permalink- Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
Peter, I think I may have misunderstood what you said about the fabric. I can see now that you were referring just to the small strip of what may be lagging. I attach another photo which shows some fabric also found some time ago at location 1 for comparison with the recent find. This looks less like lagging and more like a curtain. Any thoughts?
Laurent tells me that the end of the black tube appears to have a screw fitting so that the lengths would be screwed together. Does this help with the possible identification?
Laurent has sent another picture of the end of the bolt from item 115A which is attached below and confirms the identification as the aileron operating lever bolt.
That looks like asbestos lagging like you see on the cabin heating ductwork inside the fuselage on the stbd side and also on the coolant pipes inside the flip up leading edges... That black peice I am wondering if it might be from the antenna under the aft fuselage opposite the crew door. The on for Beam approach??
By: BobKat
- 5th September 2019 at 13:29Permalink- Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
Thanks Peter. Looking again at our fabric, I agree that it has much more the appearance of lagging than curtain material, although AP2062A&C does say the curtains were made from canvas! I have found a few pictures which suggest that lagging may well be what we have. Many thanks.
Your thought for our black tubes seems a much more likely explanation than mine. I wonder whether this could be as you suggest or possibly be from one of the whip aerials on the forward fuselage? I am no electronics expert, but we appear to have a hollow tube which Laurent describes as being a plastic compound, not metal. Would this be a protective covering for an aerial? Laurent says that the tube's external diameter is 25mm (or I inch), and the internal diameter is 17mm (about 11/16ths inch). I have found a few pictures, but they do not provide conclusive evidence that this is what we have. Unless anyone can provide more information, we will probably be unable to pursue this further.
To complete the photographs of the recent finds, the remaining batches are 115B, D and E. 115B comprises miscellaneous fragments of fuselage, 115D shows pieces of the H2S blister and 115E shows Perspex fragments, probably from the bomb aimer's canopy, and call for no further comment.
All pictures are now annotated in the Photo-gallery.
We are now looking at the remains of ammunition found. There may be something to post on this in due course.
Peter, not for the first time, you have pointed me in the right direction!
I think I may have solved the identification of our black plastic tubes (post #1272). The diagram from the Canadian Mk.X Parts List below shows the rear radar installation which has been subject to post-war Canadian modifications. The dipole aerial on the port side is shown without any protective cladding. Its position is highlighted in blue.
The British MK.III Parts List, AP2062A&C, shows that the beam approach equipment had a shield around the dipole aerial with material specification DTD.315 (see the extract in the illustration below). After a bit of research I discovered that this is an opaque cellulose acetate known as "Black Bexoid" manufactured by BX Plastics Ltd. DTD is the Department for Technical Development.
This description fits the plastic tubing that has been found. So, it appears that that is what we have – part of the fragmented insulation cladding around the dipole aerial, just as you suggested, Peter. Many thanks once again.
By: BobKat
- 10th September 2019 at 10:52Permalink
Hi James, good to hear from you.
I attach an extract from the Canadian-built Mk.X Lancaster parts list. Peter and I have put a complete version of this together from two different incomplete versions of the list. The original list was dated 1954 and was produced to facilitate the post-war maintenance of the Mk.X Lancaster. The list may have been updated, but it is probably reasonable to assume that this was the configuration in 1954.
By: jamesinnewcastl
- 10th September 2019 at 14:30Permalink- Edited 10th September 2019 at 14:51
Hi BobKat
The drawing is a little odd - parts 2 and 3 are exactly the same thing for a start. I assume then that part 4 has 2 stuck on top of it to make the mast longer. But why? There seems to be no reason for it. EDIT - Ah, it could be that parts 2 and 3 have been shown cut to length and the adaptor 4 is just wrapped around the mast. Even so the aerodynamic end part of 1 which is actually intended to take the antenna is now sticking out into space somewhat pointlessly?
Also part 5 seems to be an insulator, is that a seperate item or does it refer to the whole tube? If it is insulating the wire, then that would make one arm of the dipole antenna shorter than the other - not a good move from a radio point of view. But if the whole antenna is inside an insulating tube then why part 5, which would be an insulator part way along an insulated tube?
The only thing I can think of is that for some reason part 1 could not be located where it would need to be on the fuselage and that part 5 is just holding the end of the tube/antenna and has another section that meets 1 in an adaptor because it wasn't possible to connect readily with the original end mounting. That seems daft as a 1in insulating tube would do the job nicely. Also the drawing would need to be very out of scale?? Not something that happened back then.
It all seems very strange but no doubt there were reasons or I'm just not interpreting it correctly.
By: BobKat
- 12th September 2019 at 14:40Permalink
James,
It seems that no readers of this thread can help with the dipole mast configuration. I am no expert on radar matters, but I have to say, like you, I couldn't understand why there appeared to be an insulator in one of the dipole arms on the diagram, thereby effectively shortening its length.
I have searched for photos of the two dipole configurations. I have managed to find a picture on a British Mk.I Lancaster (with no H2S blister) showing the dipole quite clearly to the rear of the mid-upper turret. The diagram for the Canadian Mk.X Lancaster in my earlier post shows the dipole aerial in a different position forward of the H2S blister. Curiously, all the pictures I have found of post-war Mk.X Lancasters show no visible dipole aerial. I attach two pictures for comparison. The centre picture shows a heavy line under the aircraft identification letters with the annotation “LIFT HERE” which is a little odd! The lower one shows a clearer view of the underside of the aircraft.
If the aerial was sited forward of the H2S blister, it would have to have been fitted quite high on the fuselage to be above the bomb bay doors. It doesn't seem likely, but is it possible that the aerial was located inside the aircraft with only the extended mast protruding at the forward end?
By: jamesinnewcastl
- 12th September 2019 at 21:30Permalink- Edited 12th September 2019 at 21:31
Hi Bobkat
I'm not too mystified about the antenna arrangement - in order to pick up the two approach beacons it will have been a fixed length, it was the mounting arrangement that was odd. The upper one of your pics is a normal SBA antenna arrangement possibly with a fairing at the front, the middle one isn't SBA, it's too long for a start, I suspect that there is a very long flap hiding some thing - hence the LIFT text. The lower pic could be the second version of that particular antenna from late in the war which was just a single wire.
By: BobKat
- 13th September 2019 at 14:30Permalink
Peter, you are right. The plastic cladding (or what AP2062A&C calls a dipole aerial shield), which Laurent has found is from the standard beam approach dipole behind the H2S blister on the Mk.III aircraft.
The Mk.X parts list diagram shows a different post-war version of the aerial which is positioned in front of the H2S blister. Having looked at some more photos (with acknowledgements to silverhawkauthor.com), the closest I can get to the diagram is a picture of KB973 with the mid-upper gun turret removed but with the H2S blister still fitted. The rearmost aerial is highlighted in yellow, but it is not exactly as illustrated. The old dipole aerial at the rear has been removed.
Another post-war picture of FM212 shows two aerials fitted to the port-side bomb bay door. Again, the rearmost is highlighted in yellow.
My efforts to show the position of the cladding around the aerial in post #1282 are therefore misleading as the illustration shows a modified aerial located further forward on the aircraft.
Posts: 10,167
By: Peter - 22nd August 2019 at 02:03 Permalink
Jeez.. must be losing the plot.. yes that is exactly where it fits.. The turret cans slide into that structure from below...
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 22nd August 2019 at 12:02 Permalink - Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
Thanks for your confirmation Peter. After a lengthy search I have now found a picture showing the same piece on the FN5 front turret, so I think we can reasonably assume our piece is from the front turret.
The next batch is numbered 115C. There are three fractured lengths of black metal tubing. I would guess that these are most likely to be from a supporting strut for some piece of equipment such as the bomb aimer's computer or the bomb sight. The interesting feature is the ridged interior of the shaped end-piece shown in the enlarged detail. Does anyone recognise this, please?
There is also a piece of fabric which I assume is likely to be from the nose blackout curtain.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 23rd August 2019 at 17:29 Permalink
Laurent tells me that the black tubing of 115C is not metal, but is a kind of plastic which has suffered extreme heat. Does this help anyone? Does that make it more or less likely that it could be a bomb aimer's computor or bomb sight support strut?
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 25th August 2019 at 13:02 Permalink - Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
I had hoped that someone might have been able to confirm where plastic or composite material tubing was used on the aircraft, but it seems this is not to be. Perhaps somebody may yet be able to throw some light on this?
The next batch of items is numbered 115A. At the top of the first picture below is a mangled length of rusty metal which may be one of the flying control tie-rods. There is what appears to be a rectangular serial number or identification plate, but it is too rusty to show anything legible.
There are a couple of interesting items. First, there is a distinctive heavy-duty bolt with the head showing two flat and two curved sides with a hollow depression in its centre. Illustrations accompanying AP2062 A&C and the Mk.X parts lists show that this is the bolt for the aileron operating lever on the rear spar. The second item is a fragment of a spring. This seems likely to be part of the spring for the boost lever on the front spar, but this is not certain. If right, this would have to be from the starboard side. Engine pieces were found close by so this would make sense. Other springs noted in the parts list seem to be less robust.
The heavy-duty bolt is of note because this is fairly convincing evidence that the forward fuselage was still attached to the main spar and that any fragmentation of the fuselage as the aircraft broke up must have taken place behind this point. This is consistent with other pieces found.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Posts: 10,167
By: Peter - 26th August 2019 at 00:08 Permalink
Not sure about the tubing but that fabric looks like asbestos pipe wrap
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 26th August 2019 at 10:20 Permalink - Edited 26th August 2019 at 10:48
Peter, that certainly opens up a new line of enquiry. It would fit with Laurent's description of the material as I see that asbestos plastic was used in aircraft for insulation of pipework, possibly in radar scanning equipment amongst other things.
Does anyone know where this might have been used on a Lancaster, please?
........................................................
Peter, I have just discovered your post in 2004 on the "WWII aircraft and asbestos" thread. In that you say that it was around the main heat duct and the coolant pipes in the port and starboard inner leading edge panels. Could we be looking at a cooling pipe? I will see what I can find out.
Posts: 10,167
By: Peter - 27th August 2019 at 02:35 Permalink
Looks small enough for a coolant pipe
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 27th August 2019 at 07:58 Permalink
Many thanks Peter. Maybe that's what we have. I don't suppose you have any pictures of what it looked like in situ? Assuming that the starboard main plane was still attached to the fuselage, is this where it would be found? I will see if Laurent can provide any more information.
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 2nd September 2019 at 09:28 Permalink - Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
Peter, I think I may have misunderstood what you said about the fabric. I can see now that you were referring just to the small strip of what may be lagging. I attach another photo which shows some fabric also found some time ago at location 1 for comparison with the recent find. This looks less like lagging and more like a curtain. Any thoughts?
Laurent tells me that the end of the black tube appears to have a screw fitting so that the lengths would be screwed together. Does this help with the possible identification?
Laurent has sent another picture of the end of the bolt from item 115A which is attached below and confirms the identification as the aileron operating lever bolt.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Posts: 10,167
By: Peter - 5th September 2019 at 00:30 Permalink
That looks like asbestos lagging like you see on the cabin heating ductwork inside the fuselage on the stbd side and also on the coolant pipes inside the flip up leading edges... That black peice I am wondering if it might be from the antenna under the aft fuselage opposite the crew door. The on for Beam approach??
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 5th September 2019 at 13:29 Permalink - Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
Thanks Peter. Looking again at our fabric, I agree that it has much more the appearance of lagging than curtain material, although AP2062A&C does say the curtains were made from canvas! I have found a few pictures which suggest that lagging may well be what we have. Many thanks.
Your thought for our black tubes seems a much more likely explanation than mine. I wonder whether this could be as you suggest or possibly be from one of the whip aerials on the forward fuselage? I am no electronics expert, but we appear to have a hollow tube which Laurent describes as being a plastic compound, not metal. Would this be a protective covering for an aerial? Laurent says that the tube's external diameter is 25mm (or I inch), and the internal diameter is 17mm (about 11/16ths inch). I have found a few pictures, but they do not provide conclusive evidence that this is what we have. Unless anyone can provide more information, we will probably be unable to pursue this further.
To complete the photographs of the recent finds, the remaining batches are 115B, D and E. 115B comprises miscellaneous fragments of fuselage, 115D shows pieces of the H2S blister and 115E shows Perspex fragments, probably from the bomb aimer's canopy, and call for no further comment.
All pictures are now annotated in the Photo-gallery.
We are now looking at the remains of ammunition found. There may be something to post on this in due course.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 8th September 2019 at 12:26 Permalink
Peter, not for the first time, you have pointed me in the right direction!
I think I may have solved the identification of our black plastic tubes (post #1272). The diagram from the Canadian Mk.X Parts List below shows the rear radar installation which has been subject to post-war Canadian modifications. The dipole aerial on the port side is shown without any protective cladding. Its position is highlighted in blue.
The British MK.III Parts List, AP2062A&C, shows that the beam approach equipment had a shield around the dipole aerial with material specification DTD.315 (see the extract in the illustration below). After a bit of research I discovered that this is an opaque cellulose acetate known as "Black Bexoid" manufactured by BX Plastics Ltd. DTD is the Department for Technical Development.
This description fits the plastic tubing that has been found. So, it appears that that is what we have – part of the fragmented insulation cladding around the dipole aerial, just as you suggested, Peter. Many thanks once again.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Posts: 10,167
By: Peter - 10th September 2019 at 01:23 Permalink
Pretty sure thats what you have there Bob.. great job with the diagram
Posts: 411
By: jamesinnewcastl - 10th September 2019 at 10:29 Permalink
Hi Bobkat
I have a particular interest in the SBA system and the arrangement shown is a little unusual. Can you put up the description for items 1 to 5 please?
Cheers
James
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 10th September 2019 at 10:52 Permalink
Hi James, good to hear from you.
I attach an extract from the Canadian-built Mk.X Lancaster parts list. Peter and I have put a complete version of this together from two different incomplete versions of the list. The original list was dated 1954 and was produced to facilitate the post-war maintenance of the Mk.X Lancaster. The list may have been updated, but it is probably reasonable to assume that this was the configuration in 1954.
I hope this helps.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Posts: 411
By: jamesinnewcastl - 10th September 2019 at 14:30 Permalink - Edited 10th September 2019 at 14:51
Hi BobKat
The drawing is a little odd - parts 2 and 3 are exactly the same thing for a start. I assume then that part 4 has 2 stuck on top of it to make the mast longer. But why? There seems to be no reason for it. EDIT - Ah, it could be that parts 2 and 3 have been shown cut to length and the adaptor 4 is just wrapped around the mast. Even so the aerodynamic end part of 1 which is actually intended to take the antenna is now sticking out into space somewhat pointlessly?
Also part 5 seems to be an insulator, is that a seperate item or does it refer to the whole tube? If it is insulating the wire, then that would make one arm of the dipole antenna shorter than the other - not a good move from a radio point of view. But if the whole antenna is inside an insulating tube then why part 5, which would be an insulator part way along an insulated tube?
The only thing I can think of is that for some reason part 1 could not be located where it would need to be on the fuselage and that part 5 is just holding the end of the tube/antenna and has another section that meets 1 in an adaptor because it wasn't possible to connect readily with the original end mounting. That seems daft as a 1in insulating tube would do the job nicely. Also the drawing would need to be very out of scale?? Not something that happened back then.
It all seems very strange but no doubt there were reasons or I'm just not interpreting it correctly.
Cheers
James
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 12th September 2019 at 14:40 Permalink
James,
It seems that no readers of this thread can help with the dipole mast configuration. I am no expert on radar matters, but I have to say, like you, I couldn't understand why there appeared to be an insulator in one of the dipole arms on the diagram, thereby effectively shortening its length.
I have searched for photos of the two dipole configurations. I have managed to find a picture on a British Mk.I Lancaster (with no H2S blister) showing the dipole quite clearly to the rear of the mid-upper turret. The diagram for the Canadian Mk.X Lancaster in my earlier post shows the dipole aerial in a different position forward of the H2S blister. Curiously, all the pictures I have found of post-war Mk.X Lancasters show no visible dipole aerial. I attach two pictures for comparison. The centre picture shows a heavy line under the aircraft identification letters with the annotation “LIFT HERE” which is a little odd! The lower one shows a clearer view of the underside of the aircraft.
If the aerial was sited forward of the H2S blister, it would have to have been fitted quite high on the fuselage to be above the bomb bay doors. It doesn't seem likely, but is it possible that the aerial was located inside the aircraft with only the extended mast protruding at the forward end?
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Posts: 411
By: jamesinnewcastl - 12th September 2019 at 21:30 Permalink - Edited 12th September 2019 at 21:31
Hi Bobkat
I'm not too mystified about the antenna arrangement - in order to pick up the two approach beacons it will have been a fixed length, it was the mounting arrangement that was odd. The upper one of your pics is a normal SBA antenna arrangement possibly with a fairing at the front, the middle one isn't SBA, it's too long for a start, I suspect that there is a very long flap hiding some thing - hence the LIFT text. The lower pic could be the second version of that particular antenna from late in the war which was just a single wire.
Cheers
James
Posts: 10,167
By: Peter - 13th September 2019 at 00:38 Permalink
Pretty sure that dipole aerial is well aft of the bombdoors
Posts: 936
By: BobKat - 13th September 2019 at 14:30 Permalink
Peter, you are right. The plastic cladding (or what AP2062A&C calls a dipole aerial shield), which Laurent has found is from the standard beam approach dipole behind the H2S blister on the Mk.III aircraft.
The Mk.X parts list diagram shows a different post-war version of the aerial which is positioned in front of the H2S blister. Having looked at some more photos (with acknowledgements to silverhawkauthor.com), the closest I can get to the diagram is a picture of KB973 with the mid-upper gun turret removed but with the H2S blister still fitted. The rearmost aerial is highlighted in yellow, but it is not exactly as illustrated. The old dipole aerial at the rear has been removed.
Another post-war picture of FM212 shows two aerials fitted to the port-side bomb bay door. Again, the rearmost is highlighted in yellow.
My efforts to show the position of the cladding around the aerial in post #1282 are therefore misleading as the illustration shows a modified aerial located further forward on the aircraft.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg