Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z)

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

This thread is seven years old today but there is not yet much to celebrate about the new-look forum. At least we can now view thumbnails of uploaded photographs. I am looking forward to seeing the other promised restorations of functionality. In particular I am hoping that the hyperlinks to the Photo-gallery and Index to parts found at the end of this post will be functioning once more. The number of views of the thread is no longer shown which is a pity, as it is helpful and encouraging to see the amount of interest generated in this, and other, topics. Fortunately, I had made a note of the total just before the change was made. There had been just over 195,700 at that time. I have asked for this feature to be restored along with the number of views of photos. Without this information, all postings on the forum are being made in a vacuum. Around 30 members of the forum have contributed to this thread over the years. Your comments have been invaluable, and I take this opportunity to thank you again. I hope most of you are still here and that some of you may respond to this post to let me know that you are!

There is currently nothing new to report from France, but last month I visited the National Memorial Arboretum for the first time. The weather was not good. There was so much to see and sadly, there was insufficient time to do all that my wife and I had wanted to. Nevertheless, the visit was memorable, and we hope to return at some time in the future.

I attach some pictures. On the left is the 109 Sqn memorial plaque referring to the contribution made by the Oboe Beam Bombers. On the right is the plaque marking the Victoria Cross awarded to Squadron Leader Robert Palmer of 109 Sqn, shot down in a daylight raid over Cologne while flying an Oboe-equipped Lancaster from 582 Sqn to mark the target in the same way that Jim Foulsham had been doing in ED908 near Dieppe a few months earlier. In both cases the forecast cloud over the target had disappeared. In the centre is a view of part of the RAF section of the arboretum.

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

Attachments
Profile picture for user Peter

Member for

20 years 7 months

Posts: 10,044

Greetings Bob, good to see this thread back up and running again. The attached links work for me...
 

Member for

16 years 11 months

Posts: 6,667

Hi BobKat ,

  Nice to see another thread coming back and certainly some old names attached.Maybe threads like this and the Staughton one will show the new operators of the flypast forum that at times it is MUCH more than a forum ,it's an archive ,it's history and some of the contributors have also passed on leaving a legacy that should be looked after.

  Good luck with the continued research ,All the best :) 

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

After a long gap, Laurent has some more news. The weather has been bad recently and the forest undergrowth has apparently become impenetrable. He wants to continue searching in the area around location 1 when he is able to do so.

In the meantime, some while ago I had suggested to Laurent that it might be of interest if he had a look at the ammunition he had found scattered around the crash site to see if he could read the identification headstamps. It has proved to be an interesting exercise.

The most recent finds at location 115 included one complete round and three which had exploded in the heat (presumably under the ground) separating the projectile from the cartridge case. Those rounds found earlier were largely intact but there were a number where only the cartridge case survived and some of these showed the cordite filaments exposed where the casing had fractured.

Photographs are attached below numbered 115 and 303.

 

The headstamp markings found were as follows. Numbers found are in square brackets.

At location 115 (probably from the front turret):

CP 1942 WI (Crompton Parkinson - armour piercing) [1]

DAC 1943 WI (Dominion Arsenal, Canada – armour piercing) [1]

?? 1943 WI (unidentified armour piercing) [1]

K4 1943 GVI (Imperial Chemical Industries Kynock factory, Yeading – tracer) [1]

Scattered (probably from mid-upper and/or rear turrets):

DAC 1942 WI (Dominion Arsenal, Canada – armour piercing) [1]

DAC 1943 WI (Dominion Arsenal, Canada – armour piercing) [26]

SR 43 BVIIZ (Royal Ordnance Factory, Spennymoor – blue tipped incendiary) [4]

?? 43 BVIIZ (unidentified blue tipped incendiary) [5]

K4 1941 GIV (Imperial Chemical Industries Kynock factory, Yeading – white tipped tracer) [3]

 

Pictures of examples of the markings from these factories are attached below.

The standard Bomber Command ammunition belt from January 1942 to May 1944 comprised 70% armour piercing rounds, 20% incendiary and 10% tracer. It was varied in May 1944 to allow a greater proportion (25% or 30%) of incendiary round as required.

Out of the 43 rounds identified, 30 were armour piercing (70%), 9 were incendiary (21%) and 4 were tracer (9%), almost exactly the proportions of the standard ammunition belt.

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

Attachments
Profile picture for user Peter

Member for

20 years 7 months

Posts: 10,044

Don't think i would want the incendiary ones laying about 

 

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

Yes, you are right, Peter!! Laurent tells me that he has everything in storage.

This is a new subject to me and I can’t find any previous discussion on the forum, so I have relied entirely on internet searches for information.

The armour-piercing rounds appear to use cordite filament as the propellant – some of this can be seen in the photos of the fragmented cartridge cases. The tracer seems to be the same. However, the ‘Z’ suffix on the incendiary cartridge headstamps means that the propellant is nitrocellulose flake. I have no idea of the relative stability of these propellants after 70 years under or on the ground exposed to all weathers, and then for 5 years or thereabouts in storage. Might the drying out process have an impact?

It appears that the tracer headstamped GIV (G Mark IV) in 1941 was short-range (400 yards) red flame tracer. The range was later increased to 550 yards by the G Mark VI (headstamped GVI). Both types have been found. The propellant was either cordite or nitro-cellulose. Ours, without the ‘Z’ suffix, appears to be cordite.

This is probably not a subject familiar to forum members, but if anyone has any thoughts to share, I should be glad to hear.

Such information as I have gleaned includes diagrams of the cross-sections of the projectiles and I have attached below an annotated diagram with examples of some cartridge headstamps to compare with what has been found. The specifications of the different types will have changed with the introduction of later versions to those illustrated.

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

 

Attachments

Member for

10 months 1 week

Posts: 101

make a bucket of sand up and put the incendiaries into it they will be safe, if kept out the way

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

Thanks Trolley Aux. I have passed your suggestion on to Laurent. 

Profile picture for user Peter

Member for

20 years 7 months

Posts: 10,044

Bob do you have the link to Unidentified parts?

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

Hi Peter – good to hear from you.

I don’t have a specific link to unidentified items, although they are all included in the photo-gallery.

The more significant ones are listed below with photos attached. In the absence of post reference numbers, I show the page and date of the original postings on the thread from which subsequent discussion follows.

Item 15: equipment mounting bracket? – for what? [page 1, 23 Nov 12 / page 4, 12 Dec 12]

Item 40: shaped piece with black paint found with engine parts [page 23, 20 Jan 14]

Item 45: panel with screw fasteners and two rivet holes (for identification label?) [page 26, 31 Jan 14]

Item 57: 2.3mm thick panel with black, red and tan paint [page 29, 16 Feb 14]

Item 73: circular metal pieces found with crank handle casing [page 37, 14 Jul 14]

Item 80: black painted handle? [page 42, 3 Dec 14]

 

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

Attachments
Profile picture for user Peter

Member for

20 years 7 months

Posts: 10,044

Item 15: equipment mounting bracket? – for what? [page 1, 23 Nov 12 / page 4, 12 Dec 12]

Still not sure about that one...

 

Item 40: shaped piece with black paint found with engine parts [page 23, 20 Jan 14]

That looks similiar to magneto bracket?

 

Item 45: panel with screw fasteners and two rivet holes (for identification label?) [page 26, 31 Jan 14]

 

Item 57: 2.3mm thick panel with black, red and tan paint [page 29, 16 Feb 14]

This could be canopy or turret framing. note the bevlled edge

 

Item 73: circular metal pieces found with crank handle casing [page 37, 14 Jul 14]

Bob, 73 is the hand starting/hand cranking  mechanism from the stbd side of the engine

 

Item 80: black painted handle? [page 42, 3 Dec 14]

Possibly the picketting point  under the wings?

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

Thanks Peter.

Item 40: I attach a picture of a damaged magneto which shows the same type of aluminium with black paint marks as our piece. I can't work out where the magneto bracket would be. Do you have a picture or diagram or anything which would give me a better understanding, please?

Item 57: This piece confuses me. It was found near parts from the port wing tip. It appears to have camouflage brown paint on one side with black paint on the edge, and red paint over the black on the other, but why would it be painted like this on both sides? Maybe the tan/brown colour isn't camouflage paint but is from the interior side? In any event we appear to be be looking for something with red painted over black (or blue?), such as the roundel, maybe? Or maybe it is from an area covered by one of the red markings on the underside of the wing? The fact that the metal is thicker than normal is also curious.

Item 73: I had always assumed that the circular metal pieces were likely to be part of the hand cranking mechanism since they were found together with the casting, but I haven't managed to find any diagrams to confirm this. Do you have anything which would help?

Item 80: The pictures I have of the picketing points on the underside of the wing show much more rounded shackles, but maybe there are other picketing points with different configurations?

Does anyone else have any ideas, please?

Attachments
Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

Well, it seems no-one can help with the old mysteries.

I have just been in touch with Laurent in France. Like many of us, he is currently confined to his home. However, he has sent me some photos of something found in the forest near Torcy Le Petit a little while ago by a friend of his. This is where a number of bombs fell short on the first attack on the site.

This appears to be part of the tail end of a British bomb (or Target Indicator?). The diameter of the piece is 10 inches. Can anyone confirm what sized bomb this would have come from or provide any other information, please?

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

Attachments
Profile picture for user Peter

Member for

20 years 7 months

Posts: 10,044

Hello Bob,

 not up to speed on the finer points of RAF bomb types and parts. I hope someone can shed some light though. I will try and go back over the parts in the earlier post and see if I can help

Stay safe sir!

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

Thanks Peter. I'll look forward to hearing if you can come up with anything.

It was in December 2012 (pages 4, 5 and 6 of this thread) that Air Ministry and I had a dialogue which culminated in the identification of a supposed bomb casing as a Target Indicator casing. This has reminded me of a publication illustrating British Explosive Ordnance, OP1665.

I attach two illustrations to compare with the latest find which appears to be a bomb base plate with a diameter of approximately 10 inches.

It appears not to be from a Target Indicator which is cylindrical with a 12-inch diameter.

The two possible candidates are a base plate from either a 250lb or 500lb General Purpose bomb. The problem with identification is that the body diameters are given in OP1665 as 10.2 inches and 12.9 inches respectively, but both taper towards the tail, the measurement of which is not given. Attacks on the site seem to have been carried out with combinations of 500lb and 1,000lb bombs, so the greater probability is that this is the base plate from a 500lb bomb, as 250lb bombs would not have been the likely choice for attacking a V1 site.

The description states that the ‘male’ base plate threads into the after end of the body and that it has two threaded holes to receive the transit base plate. Our piece has two holes, but they do not appear to be exactly as illustrated for the Mk.IV version of the 500lb bomb. Nevertheless, this seems the most likely identification for our piece, perhaps from a different version of the bomb.

Air Ministry, if you are reading, this, do you have any thoughts, please?

 

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

Attachments
Profile picture for user Peter

Member for

20 years 7 months

Posts: 10,044

Not the best picture but  Item 40 reminds me of the mounting flange of the magneto not a bracket. sorry for the misleading term

Attachments
Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

Thanks Peter. We seem to be at cross-purposes about the item needing identification! The piece you appear to be looking at was thought to be the supercharger clutch bearing (see picture 40.6A in the photo gallery). The piece I am still trying to identify is the aluminium piece with side flanges and traces of black paint along the edge with rivet holes (as pictured from both sides attached below). Sorry for the confusion!

Its appearance is not unlike the external look of the magneto but, having seen the pictures, it appears not to be related to this. It was found with other engine parts and so seems likely to be one of the ancillary fittings to the engine or perhaps part of the cowling. Where would traces of black paint be expected?

Any thoughts?

 

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

Attachments
Profile picture for user Peter

Member for

20 years 7 months

Posts: 10,044

No problem. I recall that attached part awhile back. We couldnt nail it down. I see something that looks like a part number on the right hand side??

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

I can't see any obvious sign of a part number, Peter, but I will ask Laurent to check if he is currently able to do so. The elliptical shape to the inside edge ought to give us a clue, but at present I can't see where it could fit. Might it be an internal part of the wing structure near the engine, I wonder?

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 913

Reverting to Laurent’s latest pictures of the bomb base plate, I have carried out some more research and came across the photos attached below of the disposal of an unexploded British 1,000lb GP bomb. The base plate measures the same as our piece, about 23cm, or 9 inches, and is clearly of a smaller diameter than the main body of the bomb (which is 16.15 inches with a wall thickness of 0.77 inches), partly because of the tapering towards the tail, but also because space seems to have been left around the circumference of the base plate for the fitting of the tail cone.

The central piece of the base plate has circular edges at its ends and straight edges on both sides. Presumably the shape of the central piece is because the bomb has not been armed with its tail pistol (which would be circular) and is fitted with a plug instead? Can anyone throw any light on this, please? The base plate has two holes to receive the transit base bolts as described in OP1665 and as seen in our piece.

Whatever the answer, it does appear that the latest item is the base plate from a British General Purpose 1,000 lb bomb with part of the tail pistol attached.

 

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

Attachments