Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z)

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 1 month

Posts: 904

This thread is seven years old today but there is not yet much to celebrate about the new-look forum. At least we can now view thumbnails of uploaded photographs. I am looking forward to seeing the other promised restorations of functionality. In particular I am hoping that the hyperlinks to the Photo-gallery and Index to parts found at the end of this post will be functioning once more. The number of views of the thread is no longer shown which is a pity, as it is helpful and encouraging to see the amount of interest generated in this, and other, topics. Fortunately, I had made a note of the total just before the change was made. There had been just over 195,700 at that time. I have asked for this feature to be restored along with the number of views of photos. Without this information, all postings on the forum are being made in a vacuum. Around 30 members of the forum have contributed to this thread over the years. Your comments have been invaluable, and I take this opportunity to thank you again. I hope most of you are still here and that some of you may respond to this post to let me know that you are!

 

There is currently nothing new to report from France, but last month I visited the National Memorial Arboretum for the first time. The weather was not good. There was so much to see and sadly, there was insufficient time to do all that my wife and I had wanted to. Nevertheless, the visit was memorable, and we hope to return at some time in the future.

 

I attach some pictures. On the left is the 109 Sqn memorial plaque referring to the contribution made by the Oboe Beam Bombers. On the right is the plaque marking the Victoria Cross awarded to Squadron Leader Robert Palmer of 109 Sqn, shot down in a daylight raid over Cologne while flying an Oboe-equipped Lancaster from 582 Sqn to mark the target in the same way that Jim Foulsham had been doing in ED908 near Dieppe a few months earlier. In both cases the forecast cloud over the target had disappeared. In the centre is a view of part of the RAF section of the arboretum.

 

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

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Profile picture for user Peter

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20 years

Posts: 10,020

Greetings Bob, good to see this thread back up and running again. The attached links work for me...
 

Member for

16 years 4 months

Posts: 6,605

Hi BobKat ,

  Nice to see another thread coming back and certainly some old names attached.Maybe threads like this and the Staughton one will show the new operators of the flypast forum that at times it is MUCH more than a forum ,it's an archive ,it's history and some of the contributors have also passed on leaving a legacy that should be looked after.

  Good luck with the continued research ,All the best :) 

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 1 month

Posts: 904

After a long gap, Laurent has some more news. The weather has been bad recently and the forest undergrowth has apparently become impenetrable. He wants to continue searching in the area around location 1 when he is able to do so.

In the meantime, some while ago I had suggested to Laurent that it might be of interest if he had a look at the ammunition he had found scattered around the crash site to see if he could read the identification headstamps. It has proved to be an interesting exercise.

The most recent finds at location 115 included one complete round and three which had exploded in the heat (presumably under the ground) separating the projectile from the cartridge case. Those rounds found earlier were largely intact but there were a number where only the cartridge case survived and some of these showed the cordite filaments exposed where the casing had fractured.

Photographs are attached below numbered 115 and 303.

 

The headstamp markings found were as follows. Numbers found are in square brackets.

At location 115 (probably from the front turret):

CP 1942 WI (Crompton Parkinson - armour piercing) [1]

DAC 1943 WI (Dominion Arsenal, Canada – armour piercing) [1]

?? 1943 WI (unidentified armour piercing) [1]

K4 1943 GVI (Imperial Chemical Industries Kynock factory, Yeading – tracer) [1]

Scattered (probably from mid-upper and/or rear turrets):

DAC 1942 WI (Dominion Arsenal, Canada – armour piercing) [1]

DAC 1943 WI (Dominion Arsenal, Canada – armour piercing) [26]

SR 43 BVIIZ (Royal Ordnance Factory, Spennymoor – blue tipped incendiary) [4]

?? 43 BVIIZ (unidentified blue tipped incendiary) [5]

K4 1941 GIV (Imperial Chemical Industries Kynock factory, Yeading – white tipped tracer) [3]

 

Pictures of examples of the markings from these factories are attached below.

The standard Bomber Command ammunition belt from January 1942 to May 1944 comprised 70% armour piercing rounds, 20% incendiary and 10% tracer. It was varied in May 1944 to allow a greater proportion (25% or 30%) of incendiary round as required.

Out of the 43 rounds identified, 30 were armour piercing (70%), 9 were incendiary (21%) and 4 were tracer (9%), almost exactly the proportions of the standard ammunition belt.

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

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Profile picture for user Peter

Member for

20 years

Posts: 10,020

Don't think i would want the incendiary ones laying about 

 

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 1 month

Posts: 904

Yes, you are right, Peter!! Laurent tells me that he has everything in storage.

This is a new subject to me and I can’t find any previous discussion on the forum, so I have relied entirely on internet searches for information.

The armour-piercing rounds appear to use cordite filament as the propellant – some of this can be seen in the photos of the fragmented cartridge cases. The tracer seems to be the same. However, the ‘Z’ suffix on the incendiary cartridge headstamps means that the propellant is nitrocellulose flake. I have no idea of the relative stability of these propellants after 70 years under or on the ground exposed to all weathers, and then for 5 years or thereabouts in storage. Might the drying out process have an impact?

It appears that the tracer headstamped GIV (G Mark IV) in 1941 was short-range (400 yards) red flame tracer. The range was later increased to 550 yards by the G Mark VI (headstamped GVI). Both types have been found. The propellant was either cordite or nitro-cellulose. Ours, without the ‘Z’ suffix, appears to be cordite.

This is probably not a subject familiar to forum members, but if anyone has any thoughts to share, I should be glad to hear.

Such information as I have gleaned includes diagrams of the cross-sections of the projectiles and I have attached below an annotated diagram with examples of some cartridge headstamps to compare with what has been found. The specifications of the different types will have changed with the introduction of later versions to those illustrated.

Photo-gallery:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg

Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg

 

 

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Member for

3 months 2 weeks

Posts: 43

make a bucket of sand up and put the incendiaries into it they will be safe, if kept out the way

Profile picture for user BobKat

Member for

7 years 1 month

Posts: 904

Thanks Trolley Aux. I have passed your suggestion on to Laurent.