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By: - 28th July 2013 at 13:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think you will find 41H is the Air Ministry designator for the Hawker Company (others I am sure will be able to confirm that and add more). The numbers after that I believe are just sequential manufacturer's numbers running chronologically through the various Hawker designs (with certain omissions for wartime security) without a particular 'designator number' for one particular type or another.
By: - 28th July 2013 at 13:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Ed
Are these numbers off of the dataplates, or are they off of various components ?.
Bob T.
By: - 28th July 2013 at 19:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes 41H is the Airmin/MOD designator for the Hawker Company...still being used during Hawk and Harrier manufacture
By: - 29th July 2013 at 09:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Numbers are off dataplates
By: - 29th July 2013 at 09:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes 41H is the Airmin/MOD designator for the Hawker Company...still being used during Hawk and Harrier manufacture
Thank you, do you have any Hawk or Harrier numbers for comparison ?
Does anyone have any Hurricane numbers or early Hawker numbers for comparison to try and understand the logic of the system.
By: - 29th July 2013 at 20:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I will try and remember to have a shufti tomorrow for a 41H number !
rgds baz
By: - 30th July 2013 at 00:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Having studied drawings, manuals etc for the Hawker Family I have found that even the data plates had a drawing number. These indicated where the plate was to be located, the layout, what was to go on it, what font etc etc. I could obviously be wrong but I am sure that 41H 68118 for the Hawker Hind, for instance, is simply the drawing number for the data plate (68118) in the Hawker Family (41H). 68118 fits nicely into the range of drawings that I have for the bi-planes and in particular the Hind (the Tornado & Typhoon starting around the 99000 mark).
By: - 30th July 2013 at 00:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
DaveR
The data plates do have a drawing number on them, but they are same on each data plate for the same type/Mk of aircraft. I think the numbers referred to in the initial posting (e.g. 68118) are the manufacturer's construction numbers for each individual machine.
By: - 30th July 2013 at 02:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
dwg number
Having studied drawings, manuals etc for the Hawker Family I have found that even the data plates had a drawing number. These indicated where the plate was to be located, the layout, what was to go on it, what font etc etc. I could obviously be wrong but I am sure that 41H 68118 for the Hawker Hind, for instance, is simply the drawing number for the data plate (68118) in the Hawker Family (41H). 68118 fits nicely into the range of drawings that I have for the bi-planes and in particular the Hind (the Tornado & Typhoon starting around the 99000 mark).
On the dataplates in post 1 there are 5 boxes for information :
Serial Number 41H XXXXX
Drawing No. eg D 59048, relating to location of dataplate on a/c, eg Australian Demon has B57549-1, being gun ring assembly dwg, with dataplate actually affixed to gun ring, and corresponding dwg number listed in Australian Demon specifications.
Date (of acceptance by final inspection?)
Registration, in the case of UK registered a/c of 1930's vintage, a 'K' or 'L' code, eg L7191
Inspectors stamp
So I believe that the 41H XXXXX is the construction number, though it cannot be a sequential numbering system as previously posted.
Somewhere in the XXXXX is type variant, factory location and some system for linking an a/c identity back to materials issued for the construction of the a/c, for forensic engineering purposes.
Each spar in the 1930's aircraft had a separate identity and a separate dataplate that linked back to the raw steel batch used in its manufacture.
No doubt these records were kept as part of a sophisticated quality control system.
If the 41H code continued on to Harriers surely there is somebody still alive that can decode this Rosetta stone.
Ideally somebody has a doorstop which is a big thick book with all this information...... if it is a retired uncle, give him a beer and get him to talk !
By: - 30th July 2013 at 21:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OK looking at a couple of Hawker Squiddeleys finest today...
41H is clearly marked as Serial number on the data plates.
I would deduce from the 5 plates I looked at that...
41H with no prefix would denote the particular item was built at a Main Site (ie not subcontract)
Hawk flying control component marked as...SNo B3-41H-4120328, insp stamp BGA, date 1980
= manufactured at Brough (insp stamp BGA = Blackburn General Aircraft)
Harrier T2 Airbrake marked as FLR-41H - 752326 = manufactured at Folland (Hamble)
Hawk Canopy marked as FLR-41H - xxxxxx (also built at Hamble )
I also checked 2 fuselages... prototype/preproduction only had 6 digit number...production fuselage had 41H prefix (built at Kingston)
rgds baz
By: - 22nd October 2016 at 11:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
First digit
I am guessing that the first digit denotes sequential year of manufacture of the Hart family biplanes
Further steps along this journey reinforce the hypothesis that :
1. "41H" denotes Hawker Aircraft Ltd designs, from the 1930's to 1960's
2. Drawing numbers on dataplates refer to major assemblies, not to the actual dataplate. More than one dataplate may be fixed to each aeroplane.
3. Further hypotheses : The 41H serial number is the aircraft identity. All dataplates on the same aircraft will have the same serial number. The serial number is an internal Hawker Aircraft manufacturers code. Where a Constructor's record of these serial numbers exist then an Air Ministry or Service identity may be matched. An aircraft logbook will contain both Constructor's serial number and AM or Service identity.
4. The first digit of the serial number is sequential after 1929, the first construction year of the Hart biplane design, where 1929 =0, 1930 =1, 1935 = 6, 1939 = 10. To reinforce this hypothesis the following original dataplates and serial numbers are offered in proof :
41H 68118 29-11-35 K5409 Afghan Hind, from hawkerhind.com
41H 75930 17-8-36 Aust Demon, Australian collection
[ATTACH=CONFIG]249195[/ATTACH]
41H 71121 -6-36 Aust Demon, Australian collection
[ATTACH=CONFIG]249196[/ATTACH]
41H 82981 28-3-37 L7191 Afghan Hind, from hawkerhind.com
[ATTACH=CONFIG]249197[/ATTACH]
41H 101908 6-2-39 Hurricane, stolen from keypublishing forum!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]249198[/ATTACH]
From what I perceive of wartime Hurricane plates, this system changed after 1940, where the AM serial became the primary identifier. This would be logical where the AM was arranging for other constructors to assemble Hurricanes, but needed to keep track of it all via consistent contract numbers.
It would be good to unpick the numbers following the first digit in the serial number...
By: - 22nd October 2016 at 14:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have hunter and hawk plates with 41H. The last pic you show is an interesting pick. It is one of original pattern aircraft that went to Canada for CCF to set up the line. Went off with a UK RAF serial came back with a Canadian one. Iirc correctly 323 is from Sgt Jack Hammertons hurricane lost in November 1940, 6th. My hurri, P3554 has the RAF serial on the plate.
By: - 22nd October 2016 at 15:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have a Hunter fin here and the serial looks like this:
41HHHABL668812
The type is also given as
Hunter MK11 which I'm guessing equates to GA11 given the original RNAS Yeovilton paint job.
Cheers,
Mike
By: - 22nd October 2016 at 21:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My Harrier nose is 41H729048, painted on most of the components, floor, windscreen frame etc.
I was told that 41 is Hawker and the H is for Hamble.
By: - 22nd October 2016 at 21:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Mk.11s were previously Mk.4s, so the number may be appropriate to that.
In "41H" the H cannot mean Hamble, for its use well predates Hawker's take-over of Folland. I do wonder however about the "HABL" in 41HHHABL668812.
By: - 22nd October 2016 at 21:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
From post #11 (2013)
41H with no prefix would denote the particular item was built at a Hawker Main Site (ie not subcontract)Hawk flying control component marked as...SNo B3-41H-4120328, insp stamp BGA, date 1980
= manufactured at Brough (insp stamp BGA = Blackburn General Aircraft)
Harrier T2 Airbrake marked as FLR-41H - 752326 = manufactured at Folland (Hamble)
Hawk Canopy marked as FLR-41H - xxxxxx (also built at Hamble )
I also checked 2 fuselages... prototype/preproduction only had 6 digit number...production fuselage had 41H prefix (built at Kingston)
By: - 22nd October 2016 at 21:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
41H is fully explained in post 2+4
By: - 22nd October 2016 at 21:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Good: but how were reworks numbered? Made at Kingston but reworked as required where required? My time saw the GA 11s being reworked at Kingston for Switzerland, not the original changes.
By: - 23rd October 2016 at 13:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
More from the 30's
4. The first digit of the serial number is sequential after 1929, the first construction year of the Hart biplane design, where 1929 =0, 1930 =1, 1935 = 6, 1939 = 10. To reinforce this hypothesis the following original dataplates and serial numbers are offered in proof :41H 68118 29-11-35 K5409 Afghan Hind, from hawkerhind.com
41H 75930 17-8-36 Aust Demon, Australian collection
41H 71121 -6-36 Aust Demon, Australian collection
41H 82981 28-3-37 L7191 Afghan Hind, from hawkerhind.com
41H 101908 6-2-39 Hurricane, stolen from keypublishing forum!
Adding some further data :
41H 59890 5-9-34 Nimrod II, from HAC datasheet
41H 67550 20-11-35 Fury 1, from HAC datasheet
41H 76072 11-10-36 K5687 NZ Hind
So I am reasonably confident in the hypothesis for 1930's Hawker Serials that the first digit is YEAR, sequential from 1929=0.
A derivative thought is that the second digit is MONTH 'keel laid down' , but this theory would not fit 12 months.
There does not seem to be a pattern of DESIGN VARIANT NUMBER, as the same designs in the above samples show no consistent pattern.
At least the last two- three digits, in a reasonably organised system, might be reserved for sequential MACHINE NUMBER :
41H 711 21 6-36 Aust Demon, Australian collection - Machine 21, accepted June 1936?
41H 759 30 17-8-36 Aust Demon, Australian collection - Machine 30, accepted August 1936?
41H 760 72 11-10-36 K5687 NZ Hind - Machine 72, accepted October 1936?
How many aircraft could Brooklands build in one year in 1936?
Thank you for sharing your Hawker serial number insights, there surely will be a simple logic that threads through it all....
Where is Turing when you need him?!
Often the logic is quite simple, even naive. I have seen a single folio book held by CAC in Australia that recorded ALL aircraft manufactured between 1939 and 1985. One book, easy to throw in a bin, total institutional record of serials. I would have to think that Hawkers at least had a card index of its output, and I pray that this may still be around in some dusty room.
Trickiness with serials I think came with WW2, when whole blocks were randomly shifted to confuse enemy intelligence, and perhaps this persisted through the Cold War, until the illogical became the institutional logical. I would like to think that in the 30's, serials were more prosiac, aimed at basic warranty management. My sense is that it was the Hart biplanes, by sheer weight of numbers, that determined the serial numbering in the Hawker system, hence the base year of 1929, when the Harts started to be built
Forgive me for my monomania on 1930's Hawker serials but my interest is driven in reconciling 1930's Hawker Australian Demon records in respect of matching Hawker construction serials with RAAF serials.
By: - 23rd October 2016 at 17:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm not sure what you mean by "randomly shifted": as far as I know British aircraft serials were allocated when the order was placed, and followed sequentially with the time and date of the orders. Or, perhaps more precisely, the date of the decision being reached inside the Ministry and the numbers allocated. Obviously there could well be considerably differences appearing by the time the aircraft reached the front line, particularly with different blocks being allocated to different factories even when building the same type. What did occur, to confuse the enemy over the numbers being built, were some randomly-placed "black-out blocks" where serials were omitted and never used.
I've usually seen the term "construction number" used, with "serial" being restricted to the Ministry allocations. This does reduce the possible confusion in texts - although if you tell me that Hawkers actually used the term "construction serial" I wouldn't be too surprised! I haven't heard of construction numbers being deliberately scrambled or including black-out blocks, but if this was visible on the airframe then it could be useful to the enemy, and some kind of coding thought desirable.
The other prewar question is whether Hawker cns were allocated to Hawker aircraft built by other companies in the Hawker Siddeley group, instead of or additional to that company's construction number sequence.
Posts: 1,354
By: powerandpassion - 28th July 2013 at 12:53
Is anyone familiar with the Hawker Aircraft (1920 - 1935) and the Hawker-Gloster-Armstrong-Siddeley Group (1935 onwards) constructor number system ?
I am familiar with Hawker Hart family Hind- Demon constructor numbers, eg :
Constructor number - date of acceptance- K or L registration
41H 68118 29-11-35 K5409 Afghan Hind
11-6-36 K5554 Afghan Hind
41H 75930 17-8-36 Aust Demon
41H 76072 11-10-36 K5687 NZ Hind
41H 82981 28-3-37 L7191 Afghan Hind
I assume that 41H denoted the 41st Hawker design in the same way that De Havilland designs were numbered sequentially eg, DH 9, DH 82 Tiger Moth, DH 98 Mosquito. Can anyone confirm this ?
2,851 Hart family biplanes were built from 1930 - 1937, so I cannot see the number range from 41H 68118 - 41H 82981 in the two year span of numbers given above being part of a sequential numbering system.
Does anyone know what the above constructor number details mean ?
a) I am guessing that the first digit denotes sequential year of manufacture of the Hart family biplanes, where 1930 is Year 1 and a 1935 construction is 6 , 1936 is 7 etc. This would be like the Japanese aircraft numbering system based on year of reign, eg Type 97 Mitsubishi (Claude) - Japanese Year 2597 and Type 00 Mitsubishi (Zero) - Year 2600.
Does anybody know any Hawker Hart-Hind-Demon-Hector- Hartbeeste-Osprey constructor numbers to test this hypothesis ?
How do Hawker Fury and Nimrod numbers fit into this?
b) I am guessing that other numbers may denote type, eg Hart, Hind, Demon, Hector, Osprey
or
manufacturer or plant of manufacture
or
month of 'laying the keel'.
In respect of sequential numbering of individual variants I cannot identify a logical sequence within the numbers in the examples given. Largest production run was Hart at 944 of type, Audax at 670 of type, Hind at 508 of type, so last three digits of constructor number cannot be sequential numbering, eg 41H 82981 (Hind) & 41H 75930 (Demon).
If anyone could shine a light on this I would be most appreciative.