Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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Profile picture for user pat1968

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Did you consider that if the Italians had plans possibly to facilitate their own recovery of the P-40, or perhaps to make a TV documentary, both for commercial reasons, the relevant permissions required from the Egyptian Military/Government would be complicated and compromised if there were human remains actually on site rather than 5-8 Km away from the P-40?

Mark

That is possible but I think about as far fetched as finding spitfires buried in Burma! The Italian team have a long record of recovering remains and making sure they have a proper burial, why bother making the claim at all if the intention was to carry out a recovery and remove any complication? If the intention was to scupper someone elses plans they could say the remains are at the crash site? Then it becomes a defacto war grave? In any event this would have taken place prior to the media frenzy. Sorry but that doesn't really stand up to any real scrutiny. Its just another convienient Italy bashing, and more than a little far fetched, theory. The only people I can categorically say have been arguably underhand and dissingenuous at best are the RAFM and friends.

Why did the RAFM museum not consider the offer to recover the aircraft at no cost, over the much more risky let's swap a spitfire for what in the end turned out to be nothing?

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That is possible but I think about as far fetched as finding spitfires buried in Burma!

You're a very naughty boy!

Profile picture for user pat1968

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You're a very naughty boy!

Is it really that naughty to expect evidence based decision making, or even evidence based accusations!

Profile picture for user Mark12

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That is possible but I think about as far fetched as finding spitfires buried in Burma! The Italian team have a long record of recovering remains and making sure they have a proper burial, why bother making the claim at all if the intention was to carry out a recovery and remove any complication? If the intention was to scupper someone else's plans they could say the remains are at the crash site? Then it becomes a de facto war grave? In any event this would have taken place prior to the media frenzy. Sorry but that doesn't really stand up to any real scrutiny. Its just another convenient Italy bashing, and more than a little far fetched, theory. The only people I can categorically say have been arguably underhand and disingenuous at best are the RAFM and friends.

Why did the RAFM museum not consider the offer to recover the aircraft at no cost, over the much more risky let's swap a spitfire for what in the end turned out to be nothing?

Ah! So quite likely then?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/Album%202/Burma%20100%20aircraft%20disposal%20Mingaladon%2002_zpse0u0eqjh.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/Album%202/Approx%20100%20mixed%201945%20Aircraft%2001%20Peter%20Arnold%20collection_zpsaebsfxmp.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/Album%202/migaladon%20dakota%2001a_zpsfcunx827.jpg

Profile picture for user Southern Air99

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Let's not go back to the whole Burma saga, nothing else has happened, it's pretty old news and until a few Spits suddenly appear out of the hallowed Burmese soil I think it's not much good going over it again.

Profile picture for user Moggy C

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Quite so. This thread is about Sgt Copping and the P40. It will not be diverted back to the tired old Burma story yet again.

Moggy
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Profile picture for user pat1968

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....hence opening up this thread again with the most flimsiest of unsubstantiated and uncredited rumour?

That reminds me i must buy a lottery ticket!

By the way it's either 'the flimsiest' or 'the most flimsy'

Profile picture for user Mark12

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21 years 1 month

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That is possible but I think about as far fetched as finding spitfires buried in Burma! The Italian team have a long record of recovering remains and making sure they have a proper burial, why bother making the claim at all if the intention was to carry out a recovery and remove any complication? If the intention was to scupper someone elses plans they could say the remains are at the crash site? Then it becomes a defacto war grave? In any event this would have taken place prior to the media frenzy. Sorry but that doesn't really stand up to any real scrutiny. Its just another convienient Italy bashing, and more than a little far fetched, theory. The only people I can categorically say have been arguably underhand and dissingenuous at best are the RAFM and friends.

Why did the RAFM museum not consider the offer to recover the aircraft at no cost, over the much more risky let's swap a spitfire for what in the end turned out to be nothing?

By the way it's 'de facto', 'else's', 'convenient' and 'disingenuous', if we are moving in to this territory.

Of course your offer to the RAFMus to recover the P-40 for free at a known cost of somewhere between £100-200k...was that being done out of the kindness of your heart?

...or would there be some linkage to media rights, a specialist driven TV documentary, other recovery sites in Asia and of course that desert Spitfire wreck with probably another missing pilot?

Mark

Profile picture for user pat1968

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I actually took the view that if the RAFM managed to get permission I would do it for free for kicks and grins and more importantly to try and do what I could to recover the remains of Dennis Copping which the RAFM clearly had no interest in. I recovered the Hinds from Afghanistan at my own expense and I could go into the tens of thousands I have spent buying and recovering historic artifacts from around the world. I also paid my own air fare and expenses to visit Dennis Coppings' family with another forum member. Did anyone from the recovery team do that either before or after? I think not! I have never made a penny from it. I am not in the business of dealing in artifacts and I don't make a living from historic restorations. All of my historic aviation activities are purely a hobby. If I ever make any money out of it which frankly I very much doubt it will be lost in the cost or restoring my numerous projects. If you think that a production company was ever going to do more than pay my expenses you are living in cloud cuckoo land! I am also hampered by my perfect for radio face. So I am not holding out for a career in presenting!
As for the spitfire I could talk about the fact that you divulged information to third parties that I provided you in confidence, even though you promised you wouldn't? But unlike the Italians you can make unsubstantiated claims about costs as you are British and obviously honest unlike our Latin cousins. I will say it again for the benefit of others. It was not a known cost of £200k. It could and should have been done for a lot less than that and as far as the RAFM was concerned for free. I have done it before as have a number of others. Provide some evidence of your claims rather than accusing everyone else of having ulterior motives or commercial interests. You make money from this not me, I make money elsewhere and spend a good deal of it on aviation related activities. It seems to me you are judging everyone by your own standards! The question remains why did the RAFM decide to take a much more risky, costly and ultimately fruitless route rather than pursuing a lower risk and free strategy? A strategy that essentially destroyed any possible evidence of the whereabouts of Dennis Copping and made it much less likely that he will ever be found.

Profile picture for user Southern Air99

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So where is the P-40 now, America? is there any proof, I lost track of that.

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"why did the RAFM decide to take a much more risky...."

Uninformed choices by over promoted people not very well equipped to make correct choices. It happens all the time.

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I'm sure the link to this page by the Italian team has been posted here in this thread before: http://www.qattara.it/60-173%20Kittyhawk.htm - however the ARIDO Italian team do appear to have provided a route map to the location of the bones that were spotted. Easy to roughly put GPS coords to it. When they published this is unclear - but it does sound like they cooperated with the team that recovered the aircraft. Locations do not appear to have been kept secret.

Profile picture for user Bruce

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Tony,

They did not cooperate with the team that collected the aircraft. As ever, there is much obfuscation here.

John,

Pat at least knows some of the background to this. You do not, and have no clue as to the process that led to the route chosen. I don't either, so I ain't going to comment on that aspect of it.

Bruce

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Tony,

They did not cooperate with the team that collected the aircraft. As ever, there is much obfuscation here.

John,

Pat at least knows some of the background to this. You do not, and have no clue as to the process that led to the route chosen. I don't either, so I ain't going to comment on that aspect of it.

Bruce

Actual they do explain their rationale for the route chosen on the website , here is an extract from the link given by Tony;

Today we have a task all the more difficult and impossible and that, after having previously studied the paper, reports and surveys done on the ground, groped to retrace the path the battered Sgt. Copping may have undertaken in the vain hope of finding salvation: 40 about 50 km towards 123 ° oasis of Farafra.

We know that he made a landing "controlled" but the impact on the ground has been violent and perhaps wounded; It has little water available, about 1 or 2 liters (had to make a transfer flight of about 20 ').

28 June 42 was very hot (45 degrees), about how in these days (have been exactly 70 years !!!) and then would move only at night with the cool.

He dismantled the radio, blasted the IFF (identification friend or foe) cut the seat belts, made a shelter with a parachute near the plane and maybe you stayed close for at least a day.

Certainly shocked, bewildered, he asked the paper and determined that perhaps can get to Farafra or at least pick up a track (the old track passes close to Ain Dalla charted); and so he walks towards his bitter fate and almost famous.

We make all these reflections, over a cup of tea, and there is a sadness and a bit of anxiety.

We will have to walk several kilometers in the plain degrading as were a series of concentric basins in the center of which lies the oasis, but we plan to narrow searches to a radial of 123 ° to maximum 15 km.

We know that we will reach the maximum distance when the sun is high in the sky with temperatures higher than 43 ° 45, so we load in backpacks, besides the equipment, even a fair supply of water that eventually will be hot .....

We distance ourselves about 300 meters apart and set off.

This is far from exhaustive, and is clearly translated from Italian. There is a great deal more information contained on the website.

N.B. For 'Paper' read Map

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Posts: 6,496

Tony,

They did not cooperate with the team that collected the aircraft. As ever, there is much obfuscation here.

John,

Pat at least knows some of the background to this. You do not, and have no clue as to the process that led to the route chosen. I don't either, so I ain't going to comment on that aspect of it.

Bruce

You are right. I do not know the processes. My comment was one of generality and one, the substance of which more often than we appreciate, shapes opinions and decisions no matter what the subject.

Profile picture for user pat1968

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Mark12 you seem to have gone silent? You have offered an opinion on both my motivation and that of the the Italians, with outline scenarios. As yet you don't seem to have been able to offer an answer to my pretty simple question as to why the RAFM chose a riskier and costlier option when there was a far less risky and cost free option available?

Profile picture for user Mark12

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Mark12 you seem to have gone silent? You have offered an opinion on both my motivation and that of the the Italians, with outline scenarios. As yet you don't seem to have been able to offer an answer to my pretty simple question as to why the RAFM chose a riskier and costlier option when there was a far less risky and cost free option available?

pat1968. I, like a number of people on this forum, have a credibility gap with casually finding the pilot's remains as reported variously as 5-8 kilometres from the crash site. That is millions of square metres of search area. I offered a reasonable and possible answer to your question... "but i struggle to come up with a scenario which would benefit them if they lied about it?"

As I know what the costings were to get the P-40 to El Alamein, I also have a credibility gap that you were personally going fund an operation in excess of £100k...if the P-40 was to be professionally dismantled and transported at minimal risk to the aircraft and the participants. Perhaps you can confirm if you had a sponsor in mind.

Having generously given you the Spitfire co-ordinates, yes, I can see why the information you gave me re the Spitfire was confidential...and the two weeks to the recce, became six months plus, and then never. I considered that freed me of our agreement and the image you referred to, which I never saw, and from the source you referred to, was total 'tosh'. The site has been inspected by satellite and on the ground. Minimal steel Spitfire remains only.

Mark

.

Profile picture for user Bruce

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Actual they do explain their rationale for the route chosen on the website , here is an extract from the link given by Tony;

Today we have a task all the more difficult and impossible and that, after having previously studied the paper, reports and surveys done on the ground, groped to retrace the path the battered Sgt. Copping may have undertaken in the vain hope of finding salvation: 40 about 50 km towards 123 ° oasis of Farafra.

We know that he made a landing "controlled" but the impact on the ground has been violent and perhaps wounded; It has little water available, about 1 or 2 liters (had to make a transfer flight of about 20 ').

28 June 42 was very hot (45 degrees), about how in these days (have been exactly 70 years !!!) and then would move only at night with the cool.

He dismantled the radio, blasted the IFF (identification friend or foe) cut the seat belts, made a shelter with a parachute near the plane and maybe you stayed close for at least a day.

Certainly shocked, bewildered, he asked the paper and determined that perhaps can get to Farafra or at least pick up a track (the old track passes close to Ain Dalla charted); and so he walks towards his bitter fate and almost famous.

We make all these reflections, over a cup of tea, and there is a sadness and a bit of anxiety.

We will have to walk several kilometers in the plain degrading as were a series of concentric basins in the center of which lies the oasis, but we plan to narrow searches to a radial of 123 ° to maximum 15 km.

We know that we will reach the maximum distance when the sun is high in the sky with temperatures higher than 43 ° 45, so we load in backpacks, besides the equipment, even a fair supply of water that eventually will be hot .....

We distance ourselves about 300 meters apart and set off.

This is far from exhaustive, and is clearly translated from Italian. There is a great deal more information contained on the website.

N.B. For 'Paper' read Map

Pat, with the greatest respect, there is no way on this earth they could sit on the wing of the aircraft, thermos flask in hand, and simply say, 'he must have gone that way'. The chances of stumbling across remains at a distance of more than a few hundred yards are nil.

Profile picture for user 43-2195

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Bruce, unless you actually go, then you never know. You may be right , you may be wrong. All we can draw upon is past experience. Lady be Good crew members remains were found exposed on the surface by searchers. Why not Lt Copping?

Profile picture for user pat1968

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So your answer is that my credibility is questionable, what a surprise!

pat1968. I like a number of people on this forum have a credibility gap with casually finding the pilot's remains as reported variously as 5-8 kilometres from the crash site. That is millions of square metres of search area. I offered a reasonable and possible answer to your question... "but i struggle to come up with a scenario which would benefit them if they lied about it?"

You may well be right with regards to finding the pilots remains, I can neither confirm or deny any of the Italian claims. As for your scenario as i have stated quite clearly it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If the Italian team wanted to obscure human remains as they represented a complication to a potential recovery why report them at all? Sorry scenario yes, reasonable and possible nonsense!

As I know what the costings were to get the P-40 to El Alamein, I also have a credibility gap that you were personally going fund an operation in excess of £100k...if the P-40 was to be professionally dismantled and transported at minimal risk to the aircraft and the participants. Perhaps you can confirm if you had a sponsor in mind.

You are clearly having some difficulty understanding what i am saying. The sponsorship would have come from the production company. They document the search and recovery and provided security. The aircraft could surely have been dismantled by the RAFM experts? I have never said that i would fund a recovery personally. As far as £100K to dismantle an aircraft and transport it a few hundred miles after loading it into a container as many others have said I would love to see where the money was spent! But again that won't be forthcoming will it! I recovered two container loads of aircraft dismantled them, packed them into two shipping container transported them hundreds of miles through a war zone, had them loaded onto a container ship and transported back to the UK for a fraction of that cost. If you have/had an issue with my credibility with regards to recoveries why did you generously (as you put it) give me the coordinates for the spitfire?

Having generously given you the Spitfire co-ordinates, yes, I can see why the information you gave me re the Spitfire was confidential...and the two weeks to the recce, became six months plus, and then never. I considered that freed me of our agreement and the image you referred to, which I never saw, and from the source you referred to, was total 'tosh'. The site has been inspected by satellite and on the ground. Minimal steel Spitfire remains only.

I am afraid i have credibility gap when it comes to believing that you do anything out of generosity! You haven't mentioned your generous finders fee and desire to be involved in any documentary that may or may not have materialised. The idea that I agreed to carry out a recce in two weeks is nonsense and i am not surprised that you can offer a BS reason for unilaterally going back on promises that you make. I know it isn't the first time either do you remember publishing pictures of the Hinds when you were asked to keep them under raps? Selective memory it seems when it comes to sticking to agreements! As far as my sources are concerned i will happily discuss this with you face to face when we meet again.

As you have failed to answer my question I assume i can use the Italian rationale and use that as a means of assuming your lack of credibility!