Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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13 years 7 months

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Re difference beween LG.009 and LG.106 you have to remember Kttyhawk Pilot was written 40 years later using the memories and log books of Stocky Edwards and the data then available. It is likely they looked at the date and assumed Copping was evacuating with the rest of them when he went missing. However, we also know that the aircraft he was flying ET574 was also supposed to be damaged, flying with its undercarriage down and on its way to a repair unit. It is likely he was told to fly the not so lame duck back to a repair unit further way.

Agreed, facts and memories rarely align 100%.

So I revisited the list of Landing Grounds and I discovered something. As I stated before, LG-009 (30°58′0″N 28°12′0″E) and LG-106 (30°58′0″N 28°39′0″E) are only 25+ miles apart. But there was another "LG-9". LG-185 at one time was called LG-9 and it's location (23°32′0″N 23°50′0″E) is south west of LG-106, in Libya. In fact if all the location coordinates are correct, LG-9 and LG106 are 600+ miles apart. Still within the specified range of "clean" P-40E (650 miles), but just within with a margin of less than 50 miles. Could this be the correct LG-9?

Here is the intersting part, I find. If you plot a course from LG-9 to LG-106, the flightpath now takes you over the Al Wadi Al Jadid Desert. To me this makes more sense now. As someone mentioned here earlier, with fixed landing gear what would the range have been? Could Copping have jockied his fuel settings and flying characteristics in the hopes of making it to LG-106 or an alternate field?

Paul I agree it seems, as always there is more to the story. Of course this conjecture is all dependent on the the accuracy of it's original author.

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

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Speculation.

A lot of speculation on this thread, most of it pretty pointless until detail are confirmed.
Two quick points;-
1. From the air, that bit of desert might have looked pretty good. However, mown grass often turns into standing corn on contact...
2. If this a/c was being ferried with u/c locked-down to extreme range (An unlikely scenario in any case.), then it's most unlikely that he'd have flown fully-armed with all that unnecessary weight.

I'm sure the real facts will surface soon enough. :)

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Desert P-40 260 Sqn

This is an amazing story, it has been suggested that it might be one of Stocky Edwards Kittyhawks, I called him last night and he assures me he never crash landed a P-40 in the desert and was very amused by all the speculation it might be one of his aircraft. When the real facts are eventually determined I'm sure the story will be a good one and I shall pass the details on to Stocky Edwards.

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How did we suddenly jump from possibly being Copping to Stocky Edwards aircraft??

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No idea - it certainly hasnt been suggested here!

However, it was almost certainly flown by a number of different pilots - but until we have an identity, we just wont know.

Bruce

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How did we suddenly jump from possibly being Copping to Stocky Edwards aircraft??

It all got started with a Vintage Wings of Canada article on their website.
In their enthusiasm, they kind of jumped the gun a bit and have been amending the article since publishing it.
BTW Stocky Edwards was contacted this week and confirms that he was not the pilot of the a/c and not one of his old mounts as far as he is concerned. As many have stated here and on other forums, wartime records found so far indicate that at least 12 P40's wore HS B.

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BTW Stocky Edwards was contacted this week and confirms that he was not the pilot of the a/c and not one of his old mounts as far as he is concerned. As many have stated here and on other forums, wartime records found so far indicate that at least 12 P40's wore HS B.

Interesting as if an I mean If ET574 it is mentioned in his book !

can someone ask Stocky how he recorded his flights in his log book? By serial or by sqn code? Thanks

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P40

Paul

Already asked!

Reading a bit more on F/Sgt Copping in Stocky Edwards book.

He was with 260Sqn in mid May 1942 and was classed as one of the 'newer men' along with a dozen more.

19th May 1942 Copping crash landed his Kittyhawk after combat (Italian And Luftwaffe).

Nothing listed for damage to any Kittyhawk's in last week of June though there must have been some. Due to the retreats it seems squadron records were sparse.

regards

Mark

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The mystery deepens..

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Ferry flight

Gents

Lets lay this to rest. Copping was departing LG09 and going to LG100 (home of 53RSU), he however, was not alone. but in a flight of two.

This has been confirmed by a logbook extract I have (I'm trying to get formal release so I can post a quick scan of the page).

Buz

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Gents

Lets lay this to rest. Copping was departing LG09 and going to LG100 (home of 53RSU), he however, was not alone. but in a flight of two.

This has been confirmed by a logbook extract I have (I'm trying to get formal release so I can post a quick scan of the page).

Buz

Hi
If he was flying in a flight of two, this might explain the knowledge posted earlier that "An incorrect course was set "
cheers
Jerry

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Paul

Already asked!

Reading a bit more on F/Sgt Copping in Stocky Edwards book.

He was with 260Sqn in mid May 1942 and was classed as one of the 'newer men' along with a dozen more.

19th May 1942 Copping crash landed his Kittyhawk after combat (Italian And Luftwaffe).

Nothing listed for damage to any Kittyhawk's in last week of June though there must have been some. Due to the retreats it seems squadron records were sparse.

regards

Mark

Hi
Only luftwaffe claims i can find are :-

26. June 1941
Fliegerführer Afrika

26.06.41 Oblt. Ludwig Franzisket: 20 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  Ain-el-Gazala 13.45 Film C. 2036/II Nr.65982/41
26.06.41 Ofw. Herbert Kowalski: 3 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  Ain-el-Gazala 13.55 Film C. 2036/II Nr.65982/41

30. June 1941
Fliegerführer Afrika

30.06.41 Oblt. Ludwig Franzisket: 21 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  nördl. Marsa Lūccech 16.35 Film C. 2036/II Nr.65982/41

from tony wood files

cheers
Jerry

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Damaged Kittyhawks

Gents

28-6-42 - Reconnaissance - Time up 0620, time down 0730, Light accuarte A.A encountered 1 x Kittyhawk Cat 1 2 x Kittyhawk Cat II.

Source 260SQDN ORB

Buz

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Could well have tangled with Italians flying with the 4° Stormo, not sure if their records survive.

Dave

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P40

Buz

That mornings reconnaissance sounds like a good option.

The 'no' listings I mentioned was only in relation to the book.

So one Cat1 and to Cat2 damage to three P40's on the morning of 28th June. The damage to the rear fuselage looks more like flak though again destroying the IFF has been discussed as an option though thought this was on a tray at the bottom of the rear fuselage?

ET574 obviously had some damage to either the control linkages/connections to be unable to retract.

Damage listings

Categories 1 and 2 are those classified as being repairable using Squadron Technical resources.
Category 3 repair requires station or Command resources. This level of damage is the lowest level of damage to be classified as a Major Accident and must be reported as such.
Category 4 usually requires the aircraft to be returned to a Maintenance Unit in the UK for repair.
Category 5 is considered a write off and the aircraft is beyond repair by RAF resources.

Non retractable undercarriage is a serious issue and means it is non operational. Could probably be sorted out at the squadron but not with the retreat and moving being undertaken so seems it was decided to send these two back to 53RSU for repair.

Why Copping went South is a whole other minefield.

regards

Mark

GENERAL NOTE
TO REITERATE - THE P40 HAS YET TO BE CONFIRMED AS BEING ET574 AND BELONGING TO F/SGT COPPING

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So why are people constantly exploring the circumstances of the pilot when its yet to be confirmed that its his aircraft!

David

I think Mark and others have consistently laboured this very point!

It may well be. It may not be. But I am sure that Mark and others are onto it and we will know soon enough.

Until then, all else is idle speculation based upon a likely though as-yet unproven scenario.

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Personally I am happy on the evidence we have at the moment that the rear fuselage damage originates from the IFF detonation, as there is no evidence I can see of penetration from the outside in (as it were!!)

The whole tableaux is starting to point towards a sad ending to a brave man - whoever he was.

I genuinely hope that the whole thing can be transported to a major museum and displayed as is - it will be a powerful exhibit indeed.

Bruce

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I genuinely hope that the whole thing can be transported to a major museum and displayed as is - it will be a powerful exhibit indeed.

Bruce

... after our Egyptian friends have finished molesting it