Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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Sadly, it does not surprise me.

However, it is more than difficult to fathom - as you say.

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If someone was so inclined, now might be a good time to contact national newspapers and pass on the facts as we understand them with the contact details of the family. Given the 12 months of dithering so far, it's about time some national attention was shone on this issue again and if certain parties came out appearing incompetent that would certainly be nothing if not a fair description of their actions in this matter.

They are already on to it.

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But if those were not the remains of Copping have you thought of a plan "B" to continue research ........ or all will be forgotten?

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If they are not Flt Sgt Copping's remains, we would wish to search the original site of the crash, if that is possible, but first we must be able to examine the remains that were found.

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The team Qattara/Arido can judge the probability of the remains and wait for a possible DNA test
or start studying a plan "B" for new searches.

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This is very interesting and good of them to look but with a resolution only capable of viewing objects larger than eighteen inches it was always unlikely that any evidence of the movements or whereabouts of the pilot would be found. There are certainly satellite systems that are capable of a much greater resolution but unfortunately the likes of you and I are not likely to have access to them. If the remains discovered by the are not those of Dennis Copping then i think the only way he will be found will be by an organised search on the ground or by accident in the same way that his aircraft was found. Either way we should do what we can to find him, positively identify him and give him a decent burial.

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I think most of the members posting on this thread are of similar views on the subject of finding and recovering Sgt Dennis Copping's remains. The fact that such a large crashsite had remained relatively undisturbed and unlocated for so long only adds to our frustration. But my dealings with CIL(HI), now JPAC over the last ten plus years have made me view another angle on MIA search and recovery. Given that the USA actually has a unit dedicated to this task, and the UK does not, would only detract further from what I am about to post.
The US recovery unit (JPAC- Joint Personnel Accounting Command) does NOT search for the missing. They only investigate reported finds. Reports of human remains receive priority, reports of missing aircraft(with no visible remains) take a much lesser priority. The initial investigation is NOT a recovery, the initial field team compose a report on what would be needed to carry out a recovery, what assets are available to assist, and the likelihood of success. JPAC has a budget, and is restricted by that budget. An initial investigation of a missing aircraft (without remains) may be undertaken months or even years after discovery of the aircraft. Lists are drawn up of recovery sites that can be covered in a single deployment to get the best result with the funds expended. Given the opportunity to recover a multi crew aircraft or a single pilot aircraft, the multi crew aircraft will always get priority. In Papua New Guinea, where JPAC's list is never exhausted, it is not uncommon for single pilot aircraft to keep moving downwards in priority as multi crew aircraft sites become known/accessible. Two recent P-38 recoveries, were investigated 5 years ago and first reported by Australian Patrol Officers in the 1960's.
Not trying to hijack the thread, just feeling the same frustration at Sgt Copping's predicament in regards to the "apparent" lack of action being shown, and wanted to point out how long a dedicated recovery unit takes to achieve an outcome. As I said, the UK doesn't actually have one of these units.
I have known politicians and media to influence JPAC priorities, but such influence is not looked upon favourably by JPAC, who consider their own prioritization to be the most effective.

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about copping case

hello to all
at this particular time I ask, if possible, not to disclose any information of which you are aware whether directly or indirectly and which comes from abroad as there is a real risk that hindered all the next steps.
we will inform you as soon as there are interesting developments, and I think soon.

DKO, think positive otherwise not serve for nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I will be positive and I will wait !

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I think most of the members posting on this thread are of similar views on the subject of finding and recovering Sgt Dennis Copping's remains. ...

Thanks for that explanation - I think what frustrates many of us in the UK is that the UK Govt's starting policy is one of opposing recovery/repatriation in most cases, against the US one of recovery whereever possible

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I received a letter from my MP Adam Holloway contain one from the MOD.
It says that they have been unable to contact the finders by email. Perhaps
qattra can help make the link. I do not have the letter handy as I have too recently left hospital, but it was The Minister for Veteran Affairs.
mmitch.

From what I know, that is an extraordinary claim!

What is the date of this letter from the MOD?

If recent, it begs the question; if the MOD have been unable to contact the finders of the remains then how can they, or the Defence Attache, have actually been to find and recover the remains in order to discover that DNA could not be recovered?

The point I am making is that only the finders knew the location of the remains. Thus, without contact with the finders then I fail to see how the MOD/DA could have recovered them from the desert.

Or am I missing something?

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I've followed this thread with interest from the start. While the apparent slowness of the MOD and lack of action on the ground in Egypt seems to be the main, apparent, problem let's consider the situation. Remains have been found and, thankfully, concealed and preserved for future recovery. However, we must bear in mind the current geo-political situation. Egypt has considerable problems with internal unrest, the North African region has seen turbulent times with westerners being targeted. You can be certain that the Egyptian authorities have more pressing commitments than to provide armed escort and safe passage for a recovery team - and they certainly would not countenance the prescence of an armed military expedition of a foreign power. While our good friend qattra has done so much to record and preserve what there is there must be an element of personal risk even in such a remote location once their continued presence is known. Perhaps that is why things are taking so long, to keep people away from the site and perceived dangers. Would we really expect the authorities to authorise an unprotected recovery and then take the flak if things went wrong. I, as much as you all, wish to see closure on this for the sake of Sgt Copping and his family but feel that we will just have to wait this out patiently.

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Some would argue that the effort to recover the P-40 is far higher than the recovery of human remains within a very short distance. It would make sense to have recovered both at the same time rather then doubling the risk by going to the site twice.

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I disagree David.. I would have sooner seen the aircraft be made secure.. then a comprehensive search for the missing pilot done.. but in a perfect world and all that...

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Some would argue that the effort to recover the P-40 is far higher than the recovery of human remains within a very short distance. It would make sense to have recovered both at the same time rather then doubling the risk by going to the site twice.

If I recall from previous threads, the bones had not been discovered when the aircraft was recovered. I also would not call 8kilometers a very short distance. As a search radius, that's over 200 million square metres - a very fortunate find by quatara in such a short time

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I've followed this thread with interest from the start. While the apparent slowness of the MOD and lack of action on the ground in Egypt seems to be the main, apparent, problem let's consider the situation. Remains have been found and, thankfully, concealed and preserved for future recovery. However, we must bear in mind the current geo-political situation. Egypt has considerable problems with internal unrest, the North African region has seen turbulent times with westerners being targeted. You can be certain that the Egyptian authorities have more pressing commitments than to provide armed escort and safe passage for a recovery team - and they certainly would not countenance the prescence of an armed military expedition of a foreign power. While our good friend qattra has done so much to record and preserve what there is there must be an element of personal risk even in such a remote location once their continued presence is known. Perhaps that is why things are taking so long, to keep people away from the site and perceived dangers. Would we really expect the authorities to authorise an unprotected recovery and then take the flak if things went wrong. I, as much as you all, wish to see closure on this for the sake of Sgt Copping and his family but feel that we will just have to wait this out patiently.

All expeditions into the desert require a permit and are escorted. Usually by licences guides. Tourists are still visiting the area in question and have done so throughout the recent events in Egypt. I am only aware of one incident of western tourists being kidnapped in Egypt and this was in the sinai, an area known to be lawless long before the recent political upheaval. The p40 recovery was attended by the defence attaché from the UK embassy in Cairo, clearly he was not too busy to attend the recovery of the aircraft but now apparently the embassy are too busy to recover the pilot? There has already been an officially sanctioned expedition into the desert. It is nothing like as dangerous as it is 'perceived' save for the risk of dehydration! Anyone can organise this kind of trip into the desert.

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If I recall from previous threads, the bones had not been discovered when the aircraft was recovered. I also would not call 8kilometers a very short distance. As a search radius, that's over 200 million square metres - a very fortunate find by quatara in such a short time

You recall incorrectly, the bones were discovered before the aircraft was recovered. 8 kilometres is not a great distance from one known point to another known point, especially when you have travelled hundreds of miles from Cairo to recover the aircraft. The Embassy didn't know the location of the remains discovered by the Italians because they didn't ask for them.