Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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22 years 7 months

Posts: 8,464

I refer to my posting #1925. As far as I am aware, Arrido have yet to confirm a number of points, nor have they been in direct touch with the appropriate authorities.

Unless Daniele can tell us otherwise?

Bruce

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22 years 7 months

Posts: 8,464

Contentious image deleted, though it is unclear as to what the bones shown might be!

Member for

16 years 5 months

Posts: 2,119

Bruce: we know WHAT they are: they are human bones. What we don't know is to whom they belong, as we were never able to obtain samples for analysis. And now, according to qattara, they have disappeared. Last year we were told there is a second set, but all seems to have gone quiet on that matter and no-one was able to tell me what that was all about.

Member for

22 years 7 months

Posts: 8,464

Thanks Laurence,

I understand that you are something of an expert witness in that regard. To me, they may as well have been from a chicken!

All the best

Bruce

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16 years 5 months

Posts: 2,119

No, they are genuine. But where are they now, that is the question?

Thanks for removing the photo. Although it is not shocking in itself, so many players are involved in this affair that we must follow the ethical line as closely as possible.

Member for

10 years 2 months

Posts: 52

I try to explain:
the bones were stolen in the period from about January to March 2013 do not know by whom.
perhaps the wp were recovered by a Bedouin who was with us? or by action of intelligence?
We had heard that they had followed our tracks but I honestly do not know.

the sample of DNA was referring to the grandson of copping, we do not have them touch the bones ever, we let them.
then we were put under strict surveillance, mobile, email, website, etc..
[ATTACH=CONFIG]229039[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]229040[/ATTACH]

Attachments

Member for

10 years 2 months

Posts: 52

I apologize if I posted the photo with the exhibits, but it was just to show the correspondence of the place.
now we no longer have any interest in research on the case of p40, after all planned steps (information at the embassy cairo, Egyptian authorities, on-site surveys and technical experts, doctors, lawyers, universities etc.) and have only got discredited and obstacles to our business which strangely ended only after the theft of the bones, we just have to get back to our work and always follow up with continued interest next what's new.
But do you know where is the container that has disappeared from Alamein?

Member for

16 years

Posts: 199

Just posting here for no other reason that I think Dennis Copping should not be forgotten.

No doubt, things are happening. I do hope that closure may be found.

Member for

16 years 5 months

Posts: 2,119

No, Dennis Copping is not forgotten, but in spite of a number of attempts to get more information about the various problems we have had in the past, as described in previous posts, I have not got any further.

Member for

13 years 8 months

Posts: 922

NO he is not, and will not be forgotten as all who are still missing, but his aircraft is more valuable and the longer this incredible tale goes on, the redder the faces and discomfort to all the officials involved. When we eventually see the P.40 in a museum, displayed as found/ restored, besides being a memorial to a British serviceman who died in the service of his country, it will also be remembered for the lack of respect shown to the pilot.

regards
jack...

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16 years 6 months

Posts: 2,245

but his aircraft is more valuable

No piece of metal is more valuable then bringing his remains home.

Member for

22 years 7 months

Posts: 3,208

Presumably that is not necessarily the case to the RAF Museum, who have already traded away a Spitfire airframe in the hopers of securing the P-40, yet make no mention of the remains (which would, in all fairness, seem to be outside its remit)

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22 years 7 months

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...the longer this incredible tale goes on, the redder the faces and discomfort to all the officials involved.

I would suspect that many of the officials have moved on by now or soon will do, and I very much doubt that this matter gives them any red faces or discomfort whatsoever.

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16 years 5 months

Posts: 2,119

We have a team just waiting to identify the "remains", and so bring closure to the family, if the remains ARE those of Dennis. The bones found by the Arido team are human, but unless we can recover them and examine them forensically, we cannot know if they are his. Just a few posts higher (no 1955), qattara, of Arido, told us the bones had disappeared and it seems that their team is no longer involved in the search. I have had negative responses from the MOD and the British Embassy in Cairo, and none at all from colleagues in Cairo itself, so I am at a loss to know where to go next. It is sad, indeed, to think that the P-40 may be more important than its pilot. In fact, where is the P-40 now? Qattara told us the the container in which it sat at El Alamein has gone, but where? RAFM: can you tell us what is happening please?

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18 years 1 month

Posts: 1,777

RAFM: can you tell us what is happening please?

The one consistent throuighout this whole saga is complete silence from RAFM - we know from the planning application they intend to display the Kittyhawk, but that's it!

Member for

10 years 3 months

Posts: 549

No piece of metal is more valuable then bringing his remains home.

I've seen sentiments like this expressed elsewhere in this forum, and in other places. I usually try to stay quiet, as I know my thoughts on the subject will provoke some people, and I don't want to do that, but I'm really uncomfortable with that statement. Before you condemn me as some sort of technophile, let me explain why.

We'd all (I imagine) like to think we live in a compassionate society which values our fellows and their feelings above all. Taken at face value, I agree wholeheartedly that no artifact is more valuable. My problem is that I find it overly simplistic to take it at face value. For the family, of course gaining closure is something which cannot be valued, but that doesn't necessarily make it priceless. In this case, since they've endured for some 70 years with no knowledge of his fate whatsoever it cannot be so raw a wound as if his loss was recent. Time is not necessarily the great healer it is made out to be, but surely at the very least for those family members who never knew the deceased there is less to heal.

If we leave the family aside, what is the value to society as a whole of the human remains and the plane? For the remains, I find it easier to answer that by saying what they are not useful for - they will not be part of any public display. In fact, there is little value in them aside from society as a whole 'doing the right thing' and making sure the family has those remains to deal with as they see fit. I doubt anyone would seek to influence the family as to their choice of funeral arrangements or what happens thereafter. Do I have to go on?

The plane, on the other hand, brings little 'personal' baggage with it. I'm sure one can push the 'inspiration' angle too far, especially as this particular aircraft crashed because the pilot was lost and on a non-operational flight at that. However, the plane can be displayed publicly. The plane can tell it's own story graphically, and be a very poignant lead-in to the wider story of the war in and over the desert, and the conditions endured by all, on both sides, who fought there. It's not the only artifact that can do that, certainly, but nor are it's pilot's remains the only remains which may or may not be brought out of the desert. The plane can continue to do this for a very long time. Grave markers stay around for a very long time too, and in the right circumstances can be very moving, but if you're not personally involved it's much more difficult to become moved by a single grave. Whole cemeteries full, maybe a different matter, but how many parents take their kids to a war cemetery as a day out? And how many take kids to a museum? That's why there's more value to society as a whole in the artifact rather than the man. It's not because we're a bunch of geeks, but because there is at least a valid alternative view. I prefer to see it as the big picture, but then I would, wouldn't I?

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9 years 11 months

Posts: 33

^ Very well put. Maybe it was just "a piece of metal" after the war, but it's much more than that nowadays (that applies to any recovered/restored aircraft or vehicle), and obviously we're not talking about money value here.

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13 years 8 months

Posts: 922

I can see your meaning Lazy8, but doing the right thing IS the right thing to do...
I would not take my children to a war cemetery for a day out the cemeteries are not there for that, but I would hope they would have the good manners to respect a single grave, if they saw one...

jack...

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11 years 4 months

Posts: 6,535

Lazy8

Your comments are proper and correct. I don't think that they will be acceptable to the many. We are now supposed to be a 'touchy-feely' and emoting society. Your contribution is much too bleak and to the point and therefore un-acceptable to the emotionally incontinent.

Member for

22 years 7 months

Posts: 9,780

Basically what your saying is that the aircraft can be displayed and tell an interesting story -however we don't know he was lost or pretty much anything else about why it ended up where it was!

The remains are of 'value' to the family but little else if I am reading you correctly !

Its an interesting take on it ! However the aircraft could quite easily be replicated by taking the RAFM's existing example and damaging it if entertainment is the aim.

Most people I feel will view the recovery of human remains and a fitting commemoration of the pilot more important than a wrecked P-40 that could readilly be replicated .